69: Danny Miranda | NFT's Explained, NFT Winners & Losers + Talking About Podcasting & The Industry

🎙️: https://atlasgeographica.com/danny-miranda/

The following is a conversation with the host of the Danny Miranda podcast, the man himself… Danny Miranda.

Danny is someone I have admired from afar ever since the beginning of the pandemic. He, much like me, was inspired by the likes of Tim Ferriss, Joe Rogan, Chris Williamson and others by the podcasting medium.

Danny is prolific with this content, turning out over 3 episodes a week with over 202 episodes published and ready to go. 

You can expect to hear in this podcast about the following and more…

• The Promise Of NFT’s.
• NFT Practical Examples.
• Winners & Losers Of NFT’s.
• What Makes A Good Podcast?
• Danny's Favourite Podcasts.
• Tips For Podcasters.
• & More, More + More.

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• 00:00 – Introduction.
• 02:47 – NFT Hype.
• 11:40 – How Are The Big Winners In NFT’s So Far?
• 14:57 – How Danny Sees NFT’s Influencing Society.
• 23:42 – Bored Ape Yacht Club.
• 28:04 – The Future Of Crypto & Demographics Of NFT’s.
• 34:30 – Practical Example Of NFT’s.
• 44:44 – NFT’s In The Physical Space.
• 51:02 – Podcasting – Quesiton on Niche? General Reflections Of The Danny Miranda Show.
• 59:25 – Advice On Getting Guests.
• 1:09:26 – Danny’s Favourite Podcasts + A Reflection On Podcasting In General.
• 1:22:33 – A Moment In Your Life Looking Back On You Can’t Believe You Were A Part Of?
• 1:25:35 – Country Danny Is Bullish On.
• 1:30:45 – Conversation Between Any Two People Of History.
• 1:34:28 – Afterthoughts & My Ambition For The Podcast.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

The following was a conversation with the host of the Danny Miranda podcast. It is, of course, the man himself, Danny Miranda. Danny is someone I've really admired from afar, ever since the beginning of the pandemic, it feels like. He, much like me, was inspired by the likes of Tim Ferriss, Joe Rogan, and others by the podcasting medium. And so in response to this call to action, Danny just out of nowhere switched on the mic and started firing cold emails to people that he wanted to speak with most in the world. I listened to much of his episodes and watched him foster a great community on Twitter, and much like my admiration for Chris Williamson, Danny has also created something that I aspire to also create. Danny's quite prolific with his content. He turns out over three episodes a week in some instances, and as of recording this, here's over 200 episodes published live and ready to go. I reached out to Danny to speak with him specifically about NFTs given his recent deep dive into the subject. And having only watched the crypto phenomenon from afar, I really wanted to understand better all the hype around this and the promise of it potentially being the future of content distribution. NFTs specifically, I'm talking about there. So Danny and I spoke about NFTs, some of the ins and outs, including the big winners in the NFT space, the promise of NFTs, limitations, but then we also turned to the inevitable subject, which is the most keen mutual interest of ours, and that is of course podcasting. So in this episode, you can expect to hear about some of the following: the promise of NFTs, practical examples to further our understanding, the winners and losers of NFTs, what makes a good podcast, Danny's favourite podcasts, some tips on how to get guests for your show, and also plus more and more as well. So it was quite surreal when Danny first popped on the screen and said in these purposeful tones, hello Ryan. I had the same experience with Crystal Williamson when I first heard him address me. These voices that you have heard address so many others when it's turned on you is a real forceful moment and it makes you stop and appreciate sort of the beauty of podcasting, the ability to be able to actually just reach out to people across the world and speak with them. When under pretty much all other circumstances, it would be very unlikely you'd be able to get some of that time. It reminded me of the promise of the internet and podcasting, the potential of infinite distribution. You really never know who's listening. So I could go on probably much more and just fluff and flop about introducing this episode, but instead we shall crack on. So hang around to the end to hear my afterthoughts as well as for me to explain my ambition for this podcast. But with absolutely no further ado, here's the great and powerful Danny Miranda.

unknown 2:47

Mr.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Miranda, Danny Miranda. How are you, mate? Thanks for joining me.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

Doing wonderful, man. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

Mate, it's my absolute pleasure. Like we were just saying off air. I uh I've been following your journey now for more or less a year. I guess 2021 was a fucking huge year for you. Um and keen to talk to you about NFTs.

SPEAKER_03 3:08

I'm excited to talk about NFTs, man. Thank you for having me here.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

So your enthusiasm for them is very infectious. Um, but you know, there is such a knowledge gap in the Web3 crypto NFT space. So just assume I'm a blank slate. Can you help me understand so I can also be as excited about them as I see other people being excited about them?

SPEAKER_02 3:35

Yeah, I would say that you gotta start with NFTs, is like we we own all this stuff in the physical world, but we have this digital world that we are living in very much so. If you're on Twitter, if you're listening to podcasts, if you're just on the internet all the time, you have this digital world, and we don't have a way of ownership in this digital world, and it's kind of crazy if you think about it, how we have the physical world with all of the things we can buy and sell and own, but we we spend so much time in the digital world, and we we never had a way to buy and sell and collect and trade. And so NFTs are a way to buy in the digital world, is the broad uh synopsis I would give it.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

I mean, it feels like it's more for the creator than the consumer, because on the consuming end of the spectrum, you know, you get to signal and have this sort of ownership of some artificial scarcity of whether it's famously a JPEG or an audio file, say a podcast. Um, but it's like a way for creators to get paid more. Uh help me understand that.

SPEAKER_02 4:52

Yeah, I would say that it may appear that it's more for the creator of the NFT rather than the consumer, but I believe that it will even out if if you think it's skewed one way or another, and that the consumer is going to get so much access and so much value from being able to invest in their favorite creators when their creators are just starting out, their favorite um you know, podcaster, musician, artist, whatever it may be, business. If you had, let's say, the first you got an NFT every time you purchased a Netflix CD, back when Netflix was selling CDs, and you got a verifiable proof that in the year 2005, I don't know when they put those out, you there was proof that you were one of the first people to buy a Netflix CD. Now Netflix is a major player in culture and everyone knows it. So if you got verif verifiable proof, then Netflix could say, oh, you've been a supporter of us for the past 15 years. Well, we're gonna give you special access to our next drop or whatever it is. And so I think that the consumer side just needs more time to play out, but I think that the consumer is gonna get a lot, a lot of benefit, especially when people can tell who the early supporters of a brand or person or business is.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

That reminds me a lot of the Sam Harris NFT project, which was recently launched. Are you familiar with it? I'm not. So it was in his last podcast he was talking about it. He wants to, it's not launched, he wants to create it, but it's this similar idea of a way to reward people that have been fans of the show for a long time or might purchase uh a special product at a specific time, which in the future might give them early access to events, might give them meetings with Sam, X, Y, and Z sort of stuff. But honestly, can't that already be done with a receipt? If I was one of these early Netflix um supporters and I could say, hey Netflix, look, this is proof that I was one of your biggest fans back in the day. Um I understand that then the value of the NFT is the fact that it is on a blockchain and you can't lose it. But isn't it sort of fulfilling the same purpose if you think of it that way?

SPEAKER_02 7:18

Yeah, but I would I would ask, you know, when's the last time a company pulled up a receipt? I think this is just a a way to make it more socially um accepted to do these sorts of things. For example, Twitter didn't do anything new. You could have started a blog, but because they had a shortened version of that, it took a hold and it became part of popular culture in a way that writing or blogging hadn't before. And so sometimes it's just these little changes to the way we operate that create massive differences and help people in a major way.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

Totally cool. And that's actually a great distinction. It's the potential creation of new business models or just necessarily new legs and arms of an existing business, which just wasn't there before, isn't handy with a receipt because if you were one of these people begrudgingly who got rid of their receipts, you'd feel so hard done by.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

Right, exactly. I was gonna say that it's crazy that small improvements in the way things are done sometimes seem like nothing at all. Right? Twitter, when I Twitter first came out and I saw it, I was like, this is literally just Facebook statuses, and so what's the point? Like, why would this be beneficial? But it's like there is massive if you tweak one thing and it takes a hold, it creates massive differences in the way we operate as a society, which is crazy to think about.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

Well, hopefully, as we get through the technical stuff and we look into the applications, uh, we can start to hear these wonderfully hyperbolic examples of how it might influence society. But first on the technical, can you explain the link between NFTs and the Ethereum blockchain?

SPEAKER_02 9:11

Yeah, so how I understand it, I'm not a technical person, but from how I understand it is each NFT is put on the Ethereum blockchain, and from that point forward, um, it's just in the code. I don't understand exactly how it's in the code, I don't know what's going on. Um, and I probably should talk to a Solidity developer to figure it out. But um, yeah, I I don't know, is the you know?

SPEAKER_00 9:43

Okay, um just because my follow-up to that was going to be is unnecessarily uh NFTs necessarily only applicable to Ethereum? Because in a world where there's competing cryptocurrencies, one might necessarily win out over the other.

SPEAKER_02 10:00

Yeah, so what confuses me is that why so you hear all all about Ethereum NFTs and you hear all about Solano NFTs, and you hear um, so those are the two major ones. Why don't you hear Bitcoin NFTs? What's going on there? And that would be an interesting question I'd love the answer to. And I'm sure somebody listening to this might be like, it's so obvious, it's this, this, this, but I I honestly don't know. So yeah, it's a great question.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Well, then maybe I'll appeal to your massive audience that if someone is a hyper technical in the know on NFTs, uh, we definitely need to hear these sort of answers from them. Because if you're thinking about, like for me at least, if I'm gonna get really, really excited about this type of thing, you want to have some sort of security that the technical underwriting of it all is gonna stick around. Because, for example, my understanding of it is that an NFT can only be on the Ethereum blockchain because of the smart contracts that the Ethereum blockchain is uniquely capable to provide. And therefore, if Ethereum, for whatever reason, again, we're not technical, but uh becomes obsolete or is just becomes significantly less popular than a competing crypto, it's very fragile to just sort of fizzle out.

SPEAKER_02 11:17

Yeah, from what I understand, they can be transferred from one thing to from one blockchain to another. So that creates some level of insurance in that you could transfer your crypto punk from the Ethereum blockchain to another one. But uh this is also new. I I don't know, I don't know if there's any examples of that.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

So talk to me at the application of NFTs. Who are the massive winners so far?

SPEAKER_02 11:47

Yeah, I would say that the few that come to mind are Bordeat Club, which uh has basically risen as a a project that aimed to compete with crypto punks. Crypto punks was the first real winner from my perspective that hit, and this is a 2017 project where it's those avatars, you see Odell Beckham have one, you see Jay-Z have one, um, that they're kind of uh I don't know how to describe it, different they're pixelated, so it it kind of looks silly, maybe it looks silly to me when I first saw it. I was like, what is this? This doesn't make sense. Um and then that was an old one or 2017, and so the the one this year that really hit is the Board Apeat Club, which I think their whole thesis was we're gonna try to be crypto punks for people who can't afford crypto punks and who want to be a part of this but are new to it. And that that started in late April, and they've surpassed crypto punks in the sense of they're it's more it's more expensive to buy one of these board ape yacht club than it is to buy a crypto punk. Um and so those came out of nowhere, but then you have the friends, which is Gary Vaynerchuk's project, which aims to put on a conference three times a year, three times for over the next three years, and that access with the token gives you access to the conference itself. And so I think that it's uh the early winners are so it's like this is the internet, from what I understand, and from the people who explain it to me. It's like this is what 1996 to 1999 looked like, in the sense of a lot of euphoria about a new technology and people thinking everything was going up, uh some people saying it's a scam, and yeah, the euphoria was overblown and the scam was was way undersold. Like it was this was a technology that will transform the way we do things, but the way in which that comes about is not clear yet. For example, no one could have predicted Uber in in 2000. Oh, we're just gonna order something from a phone that's gonna bring a car to us, right? Like that application of that technology was still 10 years away. So when I think about the early winners, I think about like, yeah, these are the people that are winning and the projects that are winning, but that won't necessarily help figure out who the Amazon and who the eBay is and who the pets.com is.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

What can you explain what your vision is for how an NFT or the technology of NFTs could change society? Because you hear a lot of this chat about how it is the future technology that's going to define entire generations.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

Yeah, it's just crazy because let's say we see a musician that we really like, and the musicians got a thousand followers on Twitter, and we b we know, like, wow, I really like this music, and I believe more people will like this music in in the future. I mean, to be able to invest and to to buy the first NFT that that person has, um, and then be able to reap the rewards financially and also um like imagine that person puts in that contract, you get oh one percent of all future royalties of this music. That could never have been done before. And so for just a regular fan to receive royalties of music of their favorite artist who was on the come up, and so now that can occur, and so uh I think that application times a thousand different ways is is what's going to lead it to transform society.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

I can I can totally see that in the creator space, it'd be uh so exciting and fun to do as well. There would a whole speculative markets would be created just to service that alone and all the technology would come off that. But you said a thousand different ways outside of the creator space, how do NFTs influence the world?

SPEAKER_02 16:44

Right. So a business, let's say that you have a a local um like a local bakery, the bakery wants to um have uh a way to you know have a punch card where they're gonna be able to just uh say to themselves, you know, we want to reward somebody for coming back 12 times. And so the 13th time they they give somebody somebody a free thing. But it's like now you have that electronically, and so when that company becomes McDonald's, it's uh it's an entirely different world because you have one of their first punch cards, and there's a resale value for that punch card where otherwise there necessarily wouldn't have been. So the way I see the applications today are about a business, about you know, a creator, like we talked about, um, and anything small today that is going to be big in the future that we can't necessarily see it being big, and proof of that forever saying, like, oh, I bought this at this date. It's a receipt of like and and the ability for the creator of that contract, that business, to give rewards for early support is how I see it. But I don't like I'm just one person, you know. I I never would have been able to predict Uber or Airbnb. That seemed so ridiculous when it first came out, let alone 10 years prior. And so, yeah, I don't know is the answer how the a thousand other ways, but I think that's what we're gonna we're gonna find out soon enough.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Uh it's always unfair to be asked to make a prediction of the future because how can you predict a future of infinite possibilities based off your finite experience from the past? You're totally right, Airbnb, Uber.

SPEAKER_02 18:54

Well, it's like this is the crazy thing, right? It's like the last have the last 10 years been more technological growth than any other 10 years in in the history of the world, perhaps. And I think there's a case to be made where the answer is yes, and that every 10 years seemingly gets more crazy. If you compare 2012 to 2022, we are in a completely different world. If you compare 2002 to 2012, that's also a completely different world. And and it's like, what is 2032? The only thing we can we can know for a fact is that technology seems to be getting faster and faster, and the applications of it are more mind-blowing every day. And so I think that the world we're gonna be living in in 2032 is just gonna be way different and way more unpredictable than we can sit here and say, because it would be hard in 2012 for somebody to say, Yeah, you've got these little AirPods, and like, you know, we're trading something called Bitcoin, and it's like it's like it's a weird world we're living in. But the thing is, it's gotten that way in the past 10 years, and the compression of growth has been so fast, and so I think the next 10 are just gonna be equally, if not more, in terms of fast growth and unexpected outcomes.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

There's I think there's definitely a correlation between a more um heightened difficulty to predict in line with increases in technology because technology makes the possible set of outcomes just so much more exponential exponential and potentially infinite. Like you cannot say uh the the smaller they can print lines into the microchip to enable more computing power. We cannot say what applications that will eventually yield. But and that's obviously super exciting, I think, for the both of us in our lifetimes in biotech, we're just gonna see some absolutely remarkable, crazy things we can't even think about. But specifically NFTs. Um, we've spoken about creator, uh, specifically that business example. Can you, just in case you've come across one, can you think of one more uh that we one more application that NFTs might potentially disrupt our lives?

SPEAKER_03 21:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

Um let's think. So one I I heard of was the the ticketing example. Every ticket that you go to a concert, you go to a sports game, every ticket becomes an NFT uh for future resale for benefits, stuff like that. I don't know if you could put that in the business example. Um but we've been collecting things our whole life, right? Like we've been collecting it started with rocks, maybe, and it's like this is just a digital version. of the collection um and so yeah I think the collection aspect of it is another application of like here I want to collect these things to uh to show other people this is my collection and to have this is my collection to have that digitally um so it it does come down to like artificial artificial scarcity and your like need to signal that you own something early because if we think about what the functional value of say me purchasing one of the first Metallica concert tickets that were ever sold that has no functional value to me except as a collectible item except as something to say to people hey look what I own here it's it's an original you know like is that sort of is that what you're getting at yeah I mean it's the functional value it's like perhaps it's a reminder to yourself that you otherwise wouldn't have had if not owning the NFT right like you might have gone to that Metallica concert but unless you put it up on your wall it's not like you're gonna think about that every day or recall that memory but if you have that NFT in your wallet and you're checking your wallet daily or weekly you're gonna see it more and you're gonna be reminded of that experience more. So maybe not even necessarily for somebody else but that's a functional value for sure. Yeah but for yourself and to remember that more often than you otherwise would have talk to me more about Bordate Yacht Club etc what are they doing differently like how did they become the early winners in the space I think they from what I understand is they made a lot of correct moves and one of those correct moves was they were the first I believe to give access for every person to create their own company with their own ape so you could and this is one of the the major key differences with a lot of web 3 companies is they are allowing you to create whatever you want with your um with your token or with whatever avatar you have every board ape you could then create merchandise with it you could create whatever you want and so this is I think uh a similar thing to Uber where in Uber when Uber was starting out they said okay what's the total addressable market for black car drivers and they would say okay it's this this is never going to overtake taxis but what they didn't account for was the fact that by creating a new technology it was going to increase the market itself and so that's one of the things I think has been going on with board ape is like okay what are what's the market for people who will buy a JPEG it's this but what's the market for people who will create a company based on their own JPEG that will then create value from it and so and the fact that all these people have a network itself to buy products right so like let's say we both own these apes it's like now I'm more incentivized to buy your products or services and it gives you that early customer base. What did they do differently I think they were the first to say anyone can um license this ape and do whatever they want with it. And so I think that became a key pillar of the web 3 ecosystem. I think they also made a lot of other smart moves like they were just really um they had like a rallying cry of like we're gonna flip the punks and we're gonna you know take them over and this is for people who didn't get into it. So they had a lot of but but to be completely honest I don't know why they were the ones to hit specifically I think they just did a lot of innovative things um and yeah I what do you think from from looking at it I have absolutely no idea but I'm not necessarily steeped in the NFT space um right I think whatever success they might have had is probably largely down to the fact that they just were better at marketing you know they were better at getting it out there they were better at getting other people to try and copy to signal that they've got this Bored 8 Yacht club as their uh you know as their avatar or or or etc I mean but then again who knows I think your answer was much more insightful than that.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

I mean they they have a bit of a different business model.

SPEAKER_02 27:05

Yeah and also one thing cool to check out would be Jack Butcher talking about board API Club in I believe May of 2021 like a month after it came out and him being like this is a project that's really caught my eye and these are the reasons why and I don't remember particularly what the reasons were but he believed in it enough to talk about it on not investment advice the podcast and he pointed it out and it's funny looking back at that now it's like each one I think cost three thousand dollars at the time and now each one is like three hundred like a crazy amount. So yeah um I think that it's insightful to look at the people who not necessarily predicted it but saw something in it and and spread that message through there because I think there are a lot of lessons that can be learned from that.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

Yeah 100% what do we know about the demographics of people purchasing the NFTs themselves um just because is it only crypto wealth people with this new crypto wealth that are buying it because the one they're so expensive two they're kind of niche and obscure and hard to get understand see the value in we know that OpenSea did over a billion dollars in volume in just one month last year. So demographics where country they're from how old they are what their jobs are do we know anything about this?

SPEAKER_02 28:38

Yeah I don't know um I would guess that it's 25 to 45 year old males is what my prediction would be um based on everything I've seen. I would say that I would be curious to figure out how much is entirely crypto wealth I think that a lot of it is web 2 wealth as well who realize a new trend web 2 being Facebook companies like Facebook Google Twitter Reddit right like you see Alexis O'Hannon the founder of Reddit him coming up and playing a big part you see it's really curious funny because you see a lot of people who were big in the web 2 scene coming back in web 3 and getting really excited about something for the first time in a long time people who succeeded in the web 2 world and so not everyone obviously but a a lot of people and yeah I mean I think that it's also a lot of people's first entry into crypto is oh wow what is this I want to own this this is why I and so let me how do I buy how do I buy Ethereum how do I get a meta mask wallet like okay I'm going to do this because I have incentive to right like people might be more I mean how Finney talked about this in I think 1993 how Finney's the one of the supposed creators of Bitcoin okay the creation potential Nakamoto potential Nakamoto exactly and he said in 1993 about trading car cards using cryptography and using crypto and he's writing about this and it's like wow what a legend incredible foresight and yeah it is a way for people to be like okay I don't necessarily want to buy Ethereum I don't want to buy Bitcoin what is that why is that going to be important I do want to own something and that is the use case um that has has taken over a lot of a lot of the internet I wonder it's a good question you opened up with like what's Bitcoin doing about it because if we go down the route that you're suggesting now and NFTs becomes this amazing gateway drug for people to get into crypto it seems like Ethereum might win the race towards becoming the default cryptocurrency. Yeah you know what's interesting is like Bitcoin was set up from how I understand it to be secure and to just be Bitcoin like that's it. And Ethereum comes along because Vitalik Buterin sees Bitcoin and is like I can't do anything with this I can't create new things that I couldn't possibly figure out what I would want in this moment. Like I can't figure out the potential use cases of this but I know that what it current what Bitcoin currently does doesn't allow people to build on top of it. And if you think about that similar to like imagine if we had the internet right but we didn't have ways to build on top of the internet with browsers um and and applications like Twitter it's like now you it's easier to build things but but that's because people built the tools and had the the foresight to realize people would need tools to build things with from how I understand it and I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm wrong Bitcoin maybe is like the internet itself but you need to get people involved in the internet you need to find a way to build on top of the internet. And so so maybe Ethereum comes along and they're the browser equivalent.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

I don't know if that's a good analogy or a good example that's a great that's a great analogy very easy to understand but my follow-up would be are they uh in competition with each other? Can they both exist in the same world as the default crypto or is it anything that's built on Ethereum is just for the Ethereum ecosystem and could not be uh you know transferred onto the Bitcoin ecosystem.

SPEAKER_02 32:54

Yeah to I don't know I don't know what the answer is because I haven't heard of any Bitcoin NFTs but I've heard of Solana NFTs and I've heard of Ethereum NFTs and I know that you can transfer Ethereum NFTs to a different um blockchain but I don't know how to do that. It's not common knowledge I don't believe and and uh it throws a spanner in the works you know if you're uh thinking about long-term investment what do you put your money into your time into right assuming they are in competition. I think what's a good thing to look at is where are the developers going and what are the people who are actually interacting with these things on a day-to-day basis what are they interested in where are they spending their time um and I think from what I've seen it's like Bitcoin it's sorry it's Ethereum and Solana with Ethereum leading um the developer race and I don't know why that is I don't know what they see in it particularly maybe it's just more people are on that chain it's maybe more people are comfortable with it maybe it's easier to code with or easier to develop things I don't know but I only can see the statistics of what's going on and you see a huge uptick in Ethereum developers from what I've seen.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

I mean that's a terrific signal to follow where's the smart money going where's the smart engineers going yeah um all right so the best way to understand something is through an example could you explain what it would look like if I somehow turned these into NFTs how can I best leverage my photography in the NFT space?

SPEAKER_02 34:42

Yeah so what I did now this is a year ago this is crazy to think about this is a year ago is I I went to a site called Zora and I just pressed upload and put the file of my podcast with Gary Vaynerchuk and I put that on the the Zora um ecosystem and I minted it as an NFT I don't know if that's the best way. I know OpenC is another platform and they have a create button on the top right and I've heard that that necessarily isn't the best way to do it either to mint um I've heard of free minting solutions I haven't minted anything since that um February of 2021 where I minted the the Gary Vaynerchuk NFT so I wouldn't know the the best way to go about creating an NFT but more so if you could just hypothetically uh think about how a say it doesn't have to be me say it's um Marcel Van Hoesten one of the best wildlife photographers in the world you know this guy's got a very valuable library of photos how could he best leverage right NFTs to make the most money get the most distribution get the most exposure all these sort of things yeah I I would think at this point we're still early where people in his ecosystem might not know what an NFT is might not know why they should care um so from his perspective I would spend time educating the people themselves who follow him this is what an NFT is this is why you should care this is what you'll gain access to we could have uh you know you could come in like one of his NFTs could be like you get to take photos with me for a day or you know I I'll sign a a special copy of the NFT you have so I mean there's a million ways he could go about it but I think the key component is giving increased access to the people that support him and so that's how I would think about it from a like a marketing perspective he would have to get a developer or somebody familiar with the the code I I would assume um and and then he would but it's very important to educate people of like this is a new technology this is a new thing why should I care? Why should you know like you it's it's like I've heard about this being revolutionary but like why should I care? Like what actually benefit do I get from it and I think explaining to people that off the jump would be helpful for this photographer.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

Yeah it's um it sounds like it it's actually what you just said is actually really helping me to understand it because it's it seems like it's a technology that just enables transactions to be done digitally more easy which might sound trite might sound way too oversimplified but maybe that's just what an NFT is and then like we said at the beginning the applications we can't predict but it's just that technology that enabled that enables transactions to happen in a digital space. Simple as that like yeah it's a more sophisticated for example that NFT where um Marcel could just say hey you buy this NFT you get to go out with me on the savannah and we take photos for a day I mean he could do that by just selling a tour right but doing it through an NFT is just a more sophisticated digital way of doing that exact same thing.

SPEAKER_02 38:25

So well and also another point that we really didn't talk about but is is really important and essential is that he could when he mints this as an NFT and then it has the royalty when somebody resells it's like okay this could be a let's say it's a hundred thousand dollar experience that he's selling well now when somebody resells it two years from now he gets whatever royalty he puts in that contract. So it's like well now he's making an extra twenty thousand dollars from an experience that he already like if he were to just sell this as just a ticket no reselling this might fall on his shoulders and he wouldn't get a royalty from that resale. So I think that's a very important point that businesses will will get the royalty creators will get the royalty from people reselling their thing that never existed before. And so I think um the ability for that to happen digitally seamlessly is a a brand new innovation and very exciting.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

Man you know where so many jobs and so much money would go towards in this future that we're predicting is the secondary markets. So all of the different exchanges that people would be able to use all the different exchanges that would be tended to mobile applications the amount of money that we were going through that it would actually be another way of discovery say for example the Danny Miranda podcast is minted and then on a secondary market it you know it's like wow look this had a 200% increase in the price this show must be worth something then they go and find you and then it they get into your ecosystem and so and and the interesting thing about this is OpenSea is leading the charge on NFTs and they've done a great job and they're they've had a lot of foresight they started building in 2017 about NFTs and and now they're they're leading the world in obviously they're they're the go-to platform what they do is they take a fee I think it's a 2.5% transaction fee and they keep it but what other competitors are doing it's quite big.

SPEAKER_02 40:44

Yeah it's quite big if you think about the numbers that a competitor that is coming up is saying to themselves okay they take 2.5% what if we distribute that 2.5% back to the people who support our um our ecosystem or our platform and so it's there's a lot of innovation happening where people are buying the the this upcoming platform is called looks rare and so people are buying looks tokens and supporting the looks platform and then staking those so that they could receive rewards off that 2.5% royalty um it's it's a wild world out there. And there's open seas one but there's going to be more platforms that come up that try to give uh more power to the people buying and selling themselves.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

Yeah totally you talked about commissions before no royalties is the word you said um for example I put my I mint uh a couple of photos and I set a price for them I also set an artificial scarcity you know exact same you would do in the fine art world in a gallery you say this is a limited edition 10 prints limited edition 10 10 nfts exact same JPEG 0.1.2 through to 10 do I then get to set what my uh royalties is so I set the price but I also say every time it's resold I I rake 10% out of the transaction. Yeah that is amazing I mean the value for a creator there but now but it but I mean for you and me well I don't know about you for me there's not much value there because you know it's not gonna get a high sale but if you are Marcel Van Houston holy shit like yes he's sitting on millions of dollars of retail.

SPEAKER_02 42:39

Yes and that's yeah that the royalties are a huge piece because it's like we're reselling and buying things all the time if you look at eBay and you look at you just sort by Disney right sort by Disney um anything imagine if Disney made one percent off every time a DVD or anything was resold. I mean that is crazy to think about that's insane yeah literally like maybe a billion dollars of of resale or maybe a billion dollars is one percent of all the re times it's been resold. So it it adds up and it and it's like and that's what people don't like it's not clickable right away is like that's such a light bulb moment. Yeah realizing that I saw it in your face like as soon as you you were like whoa what if the Lion King was a scarcity of one NFT every time it was free sold I mean Jesus Christ yeah yeah so it's it's really cool to think about like we're buying and selling stuff all the time and why doesn't the creator of that thing the business of that thing get the resale commission on on all of the times that's sold because different companies different Platforms they do, but this is the the first time where uh the creator, the business, the small business can get resale value um on the royalty themselves.

SPEAKER_00 44:09

Yeah. And so for the casual NFT minta, myself as the example here, um, is OpenC. You think that's probably the best way to go about it? Non-technical, easy to access.

SPEAKER_02 44:24

Yeah, just to get started. OpenC is the platform that is the the premier, um, and maybe like the only real reputable, because they're the only ones who have been in it for four years, building quietly. Um, and so yeah, OpenSea is the the place to to get started for sure.

SPEAKER_00 44:45

One more on uh NFTs. I've seen people say, you know, your house could be an NFT, uh real, like the Mona Lisa, a real world existing could be an NFT. Can you explain the link between the physical world and the NFT world? Because I totally get it with digital products, but what about with physical products?

SPEAKER_02 45:07

I think the one okay, this is what comes to mind initially, and let me know if this answers the question. Gary Vaynerchuk has this project called uh VFriends, and when you get access to VFriends, you can go to the conference in the physical world, and so the actual digital NFT gives you access to the physical. Um you know one of the things that's been discussed or um, you know, thought about, or I've I've heard about is the idea of like, let's say that the Mona Lisa is just in a warehouse and protected in in a in a a place.

SPEAKER_00 45:54

In a free port.

SPEAKER_02 45:55

What's a freeport?

SPEAKER_00 45:57

Uh it's uh it's basically a tax haven that uh people store very valuable pieces of art in as a way to launder money, but also to create investment opportunities, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:07

Yeah, so it's like what if the physical items were stored in a place, and then we were just trading the tokens, and then we could go to the place to reclaim it if we wanted, and that way we'd save on shipping costs and we'd save on all these things. Um, but you knew that I was the one who owned it because I had the verifiable NFT. Um, so that's how I see the link. It's like it's gonna come down to photographers or businesses or whatever in the the physical world saying, okay, this item represents this digital item, and if you own this digital item, you own this. Um, and and I think those links are gonna become easier for businesses to create, easier for creators to create as well. And uh we'll we'll see that I'm sure in the the upcoming decade.

SPEAKER_00 47:05

Man, I think um if it if I can understand it as it as it is, it would totally revolutionize the you know the physical art game, not ancient art where the where the sort of uh rights and ownership is sort of blurred and people people are dead and etc. But current superstar photographers, superstar artists, yep, they wouldn't even they wouldn't even sell your physical thing. They'll sell you an NFT. But by the way, the NFT comes with a physical copy. And so that person then can own the digital and the physical asset. It's a piece of beauty that they can admire in the home, but it's also an investable asset. But all of this, I suppose, as I'm saying this, it's underwritten by a security in Ethereum, that it's gonna stick around, that it's not gonna go anywhere, because that's uh I suppose that's a big risk if you put a lot of money in.

SPEAKER_02 47:58

Yeah, so uh I'm only quoting this from Gary Vaynerchuk, but it's his idea when when he invested heavily in CryptoPunks, which was one of the first projects, he said one of his questions was can I transfer this over if Ethereum loses? If if a different eco if Ethereum's like Yahoo and there's a Google that comes along, can I can I transport it? And his answer was yes, I could. Um, and so that led me to believe that it's not just uh just faith in Ethereum is buying an NFT because there's gonna be an ability to transfer it over and a proof that you bought it at this date, and therefore that's gonna have value. If, like, let's say in 10 years people are only trading NFTs, or it's a huge portion of sales, and it's a huge portion of assets in general, it's like you could see that that NFT was created in 2018, and that's a very old one, and a proof of an old one. Um, and so I think that might have value of like like a very old sports card might have value, or it might not, you know.

SPEAKER_00 49:10

Do you remember if Gary said uh how explained how you could take it off the Ethereum blockchain?

SPEAKER_02 49:16

I I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

Yeah, just because my very basic understanding of the different blockchains and the different cryptocurrencies is just that they they exist in their own ecosystems, and there aren't APIs you know, which can work between uh two different softwares on web 2. There aren't APIs that the equivalent that exist in the web 3 crypto world that could potentially transfer data from one cryptocurrency currency blockchain onto another cryptocurrency blockchain. Yeah, we'll have to ask because we've got to ask the expert. You've got the audience, Danny. Surely you can find uh some technical whiz kid out there.

SPEAKER_02 49:52

I guarantee one person in that audience knows all the answers to exactly what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 49:57

Mate, you've got to find him. You've got to find him. Look, uh, that's that's almost an hour on NFTs. I'd love to talk to you about podcasting as well. Uh, do you solve the time? Yeah, absolutely. Before though, is in that chat of NFTs, was there something that you really wanted to say or really wanted to bring up that we didn't touch on?

SPEAKER_02 50:18

No, I'm really happy we touched on the royalty piece of it because that was the aha moment for you. And that was that was the moment where I was like, I can't believe I forgot to mention this piece of it that when I was explaining it, you know, it's crazy because you get so involved in the ecosystem. That was how I explained it to my grandpa in August of 2021, and he was like, Oh, okay, I see now that that makes a huge difference. But I haven't had to explain it to someone new in a long time, so it's kind of something that I was just like, oh yeah, of course, we're up to you know, but like I'm thank you for uh for letting that come out.

SPEAKER_00 50:58

So that was great. Nice. So obviously you're a podcaster, the Danny Miranda show. Um what makes your show so sticky that the guests not the guests that the audience is coming back, back and back and back?

SPEAKER_02 51:14

Yeah, I would say a month ago, I would have said it it's my consistency of showing up every three days, three days a week. But I would say today, because I haven't posted from December 15th to January 15th, and so there was a break I took. You took a month off, yeah. Yeah. Um, but so but there were people downloading the podcast even when I wasn't posting, so it can't be just the consistency aspect of it. I would say that I cover a wide range of topics and I have a lot of episodes, so there's a lot of if you want to learn about psychology or the struggle of somebody um being in different different classes in society, you could listen to the episode with Rob Henderson. If you if you enjoy, you know, meditation, you listen to Sharon Salzberger Gay Hendricks. If you like fitness, you could listen to Nick Baer. So I think it's sticky because there's a lot of different avenues that I explore and I do so a lot. Like I have 194 episodes out now. That's a lot of options for people. And so, and so if they they have any enjoyment of the way I ask questions or what I talk about, you know, they might see one thing and be like, oh, I I actually want to explore this topic as well. And so, yeah, that that's why I think it's sticky.

SPEAKER_00 52:48

How do you think about because I'm similar to you, that the podcast doesn't hit a specific niche. Just to give you an example, yesterday was an episode with Leonard Modonov, who's a theoretical physicist. Next week it's going to be that wildlife photographer, um Marcel Bernustin. And the week after that, it's a journalist in the Congo, right? So, and today it's NFTs with you. So it's just a fucking broad, totally non-niche, impossible to understand. And I know that that is the wrong growth strategy for podcasting or for any sort of content creation. But it sounds like you do the exact same thing. I mean, today you release an episode with Ariel Hawani. I mean, you know, great UFC journalist. That doesn't have much to do with NFTs, does it? So, how do you think about niching and, you know, basically all that?

SPEAKER_02 53:37

Yeah, I mean, how I think about it is it's gotta be fun for me. And if it's not fun for me, I'm not gonna want to do it, and I'm not gonna be able to sustain it for sure the years that it's gonna take. Um, you know, I think about the Naval quote a lot, which is like it takes 10 years to be a success in any field. And I'm like, okay, well, I've put in a year of work, and and I had this quote in mind before I even started. So I was like, well, I better pick something that I enjoy doing. Well, guess what? I don't know what I enjoy because I didn't know NFTs were gonna be created in when I started the podcast. I didn't know that that was gonna be a thing that was gonna be on my mind and that I would I would be excited about, and I knew that going in. So I said to myself, you know what? I'm just gonna put out a lot. I enjoy doing this a lot, and I'm just gonna follow my curiosity and see where it takes me. I don't necessarily um want to grow fast because you know it's really funny actually, because my next door neighbor asked me when I was just starting. He said, you know, what what would you do? You've put out a couple episodes, what would you do if you got Joe Rogan or Gary Vaynerchuk? And I would be like, honestly, I don't want those guests right now. I'm not ready as an interviewer, as a person. I you know, like, give me time. And so, you know, in this world, we're so accustomed to growth, growth, growth. And trust me, I want to grow, I want to improve the amount of people that listen to the show. Like, it's definitely on my mind. But at the same time, we're not so focused on like if I got that opportunity, if I had that audience, would I be ready for that? And so, um, I think it's an important point and an important thing to think about, at least, is like, okay, you say you want a million people to listen to your stuff. Are you ready though mentally? Are you ready? Like, do you know what that means? Like, people talking poorly about you that you don't even know, you know, guess, you know, not liking certain things about how you do things. Like, more attention is great and growth is great, but also know that you have to be ready for it in your soul, in your mind. And sometimes being slow at the beginning is better because you get the reps in, you get confidence in your skills and abilities, and you get a like it's so exciting when a few people know about your stuff, because then you can give attention to them and you could really appreciate that moment. Um, so yeah, that that's my answer on growth and and thinking about that.

SPEAKER_00 56:13

And specifically with niching, um, I I I totally agree with you. I mean, if it would be hard to fake it if, you know, say for example, all you spoke about was like COVID-19, which many podcasts are doing. And you can sort of guarantee some sort of yeah, exactly. You can guarantee some sort of viewership, but how can you sustain it versus if you just simply follow your own interests and trust that the audience, the slow accumulation of an audience is going to come along with you for the ride. When it does pay off, then it's all worth it.

SPEAKER_02 56:47

Yeah. I I'm with you, and and it's like uh it's hard because you don't you need to love it, like you need to actually enjoy the conversation, you need to actually enjoy whatever the process is that you're doing, otherwise, you're gonna stop.

SPEAKER_00 57:02

No, you're so fucked if you don't actually enjoy what you're doing, especially if it's content creation. I mean, you can fake it in like a value-add job, but if you're doing YouTube music, you can't fucking fake it.

SPEAKER_02 57:16

Chris Williamson has this great quote that I think about a lot, and it was one of the reasons why I left Lucky Trader, which is like the quote is I believe don't practice what you don't want to become. And I realized I was practicing, you know, following the latest NFT trends to a level that I didn't necessarily want to practice, you know. And so I was saying to myself, okay, well, I don't want to practice this because I don't want to become this person that's known for NFT stuff. I'm just gonna have to do more NFT stuff and focus more time and attention on that. And I don't enjoy that, so stop doing that. And that was a very difficult decision to come to, but I want to show something, and um if Chris Williamson ever saw this, I think he'd be very happy.

SPEAKER_00 58:05

But uh, I also ascribe to that, and I'll just show you something quickly.

SPEAKER_01 58:09

Oh, I love it. Oh my god, are you kidding me? Not even kidding you, man. The universe is fucked is crazy. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 58:19

I mean, that is crazy, right? And that is um so it's actually Jordan Peterson's quote, but Chris Williams, sorry about that.

SPEAKER_02 58:26

Yeah, sorry, sorry about that, Jordan. Um he repeats it so often you you can misattribute it uh to him. But wow, that's really cool.

SPEAKER_00 58:36

Yeah, that's cool, isn't it? I mean, that's also cool for Chris Williamson, the fact that he's influenced in in just a small conversation like this, you can already see he's influenced. When did you start gaining momentum in the podcast?

SPEAKER_02 58:48

I would say the real inflection point that I noticed was when Gary Vaynerchuk came on the podcast in terms of but to be honest, it happened before then. I felt the momentum from when I said I was going to start, and then I recorded 20 episodes before I'd even released one. I said to myself, wow, I have some serious momentum here. Let's keep it up, right? Um, so I would say very early on, like within the first five episodes, I realized I really enjoyed it. And and so that's when I started the momentum, I would say.

SPEAKER_00 59:26

Getting guests. Um, I assume again, it's just you're following your interests. You hear someone, you think that's an interesting person, I'm gonna reach out to them. Uh take take me behind the scenes a little bit. How are you getting guests?

SPEAKER_02 59:38

Yeah. Um, so I am what I realized is I'm I'm a heavy consumer, and I love consuming stuff. I love learning, and I think the love of consumption for some people is just like a love of learning and a love of like figuring out what's new and figuring out what are other people doing. And so I love consuming, whether that's video, audio, written, like I love it all. And so people are always like popping up on my radar, and like what makes someone pop up on my radar? I would say one, it's like I feel like they get it. And what does get it mean? Get it to me means they are consistent, they are doing, uh, and this is funny because I clearly don't get it because I didn't eat post for the last month, right? But it's like they're consistent, they're putting in effort, they're showing love for their process, and without any expectation of any reward. Um, they might be doing something different. It could be like Hella Sidibe was like episode 42. Um he like ran across America, and I and I knew he was doing something different because he was running every day, and so he's blown up after he ran across America because people were like, wow, that's really cool. But what I saw was I saw him running every day. Dickie Bush was episode 21. What made him what made him pop up on my radar was like I could see he was a really good writer, and I could see that he was coming to Twitter every day with really interesting insights that I hadn't necessarily thought of, and so I was like, oh, there's something here. He had a thousand followers at the time, he's got a hundred and forty thousand now. Like what a legend. Yeah, and so like I look for people who just love their craft, love their stuff, and just um exude optimism, positivity, love, go inwards, like people who are willing to look at themselves, self-aware, all types of people, right? But those are some of the things that like are like, okay, I want this person on for this, or just they're talented, you know. There's a million different reasons.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:00

True. Who's particularly exciting for you right now? Someone you're trying to get on the show, but you can't quite hook in.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:08

Somebody somebody I'm really excited about coming on is Steve Weatherford, who you might not be familiar with him as no, I'm not. Yeah, he's uh he's a NFL, he was an NFL punter, turned now. He's like inspirational and family life, and just like uh trying to pursue his best version. I've tried to get him for like a year. I gotta go back and see when I first tried. But yeah, I just secured him as a guest, and I'm super pumped about that. Um, but somebody I I won't really want to get, a couple of people I really want to get. One is Jesse Itzler. Are you familiar with Jesse Itzler? Jesse is uh um how do I describe him? He's a rapper. Uh he was a former rapper, white rapper from this town next door to me, turned private jet company uh creator, turned coconut water enthusiast who sold the company to he sold one company to Warren Buffett, another to Coca-Cola, and another, and like he's now just like on an inspirational, like motivational type kick. And I'm just like, yo, this dude has done it. He's run a hundred miles, lived with David Goggins, like all over the place. Wow, yeah. He's just a legend, and so I've been going deep on his content. He's someone I want to get on. Mike Posner changed my life, great musician. He's someone I'd love to get on, just big players. And I just try to think like one, what could I do to make this person come on? Like, what could I do from uh a standpoint of like how can I give extra effort? How can I really let someone know how much they've impacted my life? One way that is pretty easy for any podcaster listening or anybody trying to get anyone's attention is a video message. Like, what everyone's sending these text messages, everyone, but like what if you sent a 30-second video of yourself to a potential guest or somebody you wanted something from? Like, that shows a level of extra effort and care that's really appreciated. And whenever I get a video message, I'm like, I'm always gonna respond because I know this person took the effort to record themselves. So, yeah, though those are a couple of guests that I'd love to get on, and that's kind of like my process. And also another thing is when you send uh an email, add an attachment to that email of like a way they impacted you or a photo or something like that, because when you're on Gmail, you're more likely to open uh emails that have attachments with them. So yeah, I I That's a fucking good tip, actually. Yeah, it's like when was the last time you looked at an email, it had an attachment and you didn't open it, only if you thought it was spam. But yeah, so yeah, those are are some tips, and hopeful, hopefully that was helpful to somebody listening.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:00

To someone trying to get the attention of someone to come on their show or do something with them. Yeah, I hope so as well. Um I actually today, it's probably bad timing, but someone who I'd love to work for is Chamath Palayapatia. Yeah. Obviously, he's the last few days that's caused sh you haven't seen, oh bro, it's not it's it's not a good look, to be honest.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:23

Um I try to keep away from all beef, but uh I'm excited or drama, but I'm excited. What what what went on with Chamath?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:29

He made some extremely unempathetic comments about the Uyghur Muslims in China. Um, and it came off terribly. Uh it's i if you listen to the whole all in show, it wasn't that bad. Um, it I still think it's it's it's pretty bad. I don't know. It was probably to do with his mood in the day or whatever. Nonetheless, he made this comment. Honestly, he's like on the verge of being cancelled. It's really serious. Wow. Uh it was trending on Twitter all yesterday, but Chamath, I mean, this guy. Is putting his fucking worldview into compounding markets, and his worldview is one of incredibly innovative technological changes in the future. And I want to be like a due diligence guy for him, you know, hard research analytics uh into the different companies that he's looking at. So, for as an example, I mean, imagine trying to get in Chamath's DMs, who knows? But anyway, I shot off a few emails today, didn't attach a fucking uh an attachment to which probably would have been good. Um, but yeah, you should look into that.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:33

Yeah, I I don't I'm happy, you know, I get excited about these things when somebody tells me something that everyone knows and I have no idea about it. That lets me know that like I'm I'm steering clear of of the things that are important in a sense, and like Chamath, Chamath being cancelled might be a a very important news that might that did get to my filter somehow, but the fact that I didn't see it right away somehow is is exciting to me because you've got good boundaries up or filters up.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:05

Exactly, totally exactly. I'm surprised you didn't see that, to be honest, especially if you're a fan of him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:10

I I don't follow him, so I maybe that's why, but maybe, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:14

Yeah. Are you into MBA?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:19

MBA. Yeah, yeah. I've had the the King's owner on on the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:24

Um right on.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:27

Well, he's a uh he's a part owner of the Golden State Warriors Chamath. Uh and so his words have been swooped up by a lot of the American media as another example of the NBA being soft on China. It's all a big exaggeration. I'm sure you can imagine, but like uh anyway, anything for clicks, right? Anything for clicking 100%, man. Anything for clicks, it's so despicable. This like scraping from the bottom of the barrel, you know, you take a 10-second clip of Chamath saying something really stupid, and it's just gonna discount all the great shit that he's doing elsewhere.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:06

Yeah, I think I think it has to do with incentives, right? It's like they're incentivized to make something small. I don't know if this is small, but like just in general, small things big and big things scary. And so we need to dramatically alter the way the incentives are are operating, and one potential way, um you know, like NFTs might solve that issue in a way, because if you're not making money off advertising, you're you're making money off royalties of sales of particular things, that might skew the incentives more towards truth in a world. I don't know if that's accurate, but I know that the advertising model and trying to make money off clicks isn't necessarily the one that is uh is the most conducive to truth. And that's ultimately what people like you and me, I feel like are actually seeking.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:07

A hundred percent. And not just you and me as well. It's just such a hunger for it, yeah. But yeah, show me the incentives and I'll show you the outcome. I mean, as long as the incentives are misaligned, uh, it's gonna continue on the way it is. Um, two more on podcasting, and then I have three questions that I like to ask every single guest. What are your favorite shows? Uh, so you say you consume loads, but just skimmy maybe top five podcasts.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:33

Yeah, but I was gonna pull up my phone, I don't have it on me, but um just off the top of my head, um my first million is one that I I try to listen to as many as I can. That's with uh Sean Puri and and Sam Parr. Another that I love is um you know Joe Rogan. Another I love is Tim Ferris. Um those modern modern wisdom with Chris Williamson, that's a a big one as well for me. I like to I really enjoy podcasts where appears or it feels like the guest is seeking truth and the guest is pursuing some sort of betterment of themselves and wants the best for their audience. And yeah, you could say that about a lot of podcasts, but it feels to me like these are a few that really uh are committed to that. And also a similar all three of three or four of those produce content more than once a week, which is an interesting um idea. It's like only Tim Ferris, who maybe you could say has built up the street cred or the credibility to just do one every week or whatever it is that he does. Um so I think the the fact and when you do more, you also get better. So you could see the evolution from from Sean Puri from his first episode to his current. It's it's like night and day, and I think that's just a result of doing it more.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:08

Cool. Um, and finally, you said you tweeted yesterday of having a list of people who you wanted to interview before you got started. Um, you've since knocked off a lot of those names. Do you have a top five right now of people you want to uh interview?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:23

Yeah, we talked about Mike Posner, Jesse Itzler. I would say I would add this the rapper Russ onto that list. I would uh let's see, two more. Uh Jocko Willink and David Goggins, let's put as five.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:40

Yeah. Nice one. All right, mate. Well, um, I suppose actually I should also ask what what would it, I mean, not advice, maybe advice if you feel like you want to give some, but just thoughts on podcasting in general. Uh, you know, because it's interesting. I rarely speak to someone else who actually does a podcast, right? So I kind of want to get as much out of you as possible, your your whole worldview podcasting.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:04

Yeah, I would recommend highly Tim Ferris's um like lessons learned from 700 million downloads, like just an absurd title, but a great resource for anyone trying to get into podcasting. And in general, I'm so excited by how early it is, and it feels this is what I have to remind myself almost every day is like it feels like we're so late, it feels like the winners have already come out, but it's my belief that in 2032 that the biggest podcast in the world in 2032 might not have been created yet, and I hope that's not true because I hope to be one of them, and and it's like but I think as a medium we're so early, and you have to look at the amount of radio advertising dollars to the amount of podcasting radio, the amount of podcasting dollars that are being spent on advertising, and it surprised me to learn that more money is spent on radio advertising than podcasts by a lot. Um and so what you may see is that a lot of shows that were once radio shows become podcasts and the podcast then go back to the radio in a way. Um and it is different in the sense that you you choose a podcast, you don't necessarily choose a radio show, but but it it still feels like that's skewed way, way too much. I don't know if it's 80-20 radio versus podcasting, but it's a heavy skew, and I think that's just gonna get evened out and is shown to be evening out over the years. Um, and I think we're we're still relatively early. What do you what do you think about podcasting in general?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:51

Generally, as an industry, I I would echo your thoughts completely. I think we're definitely early. Um, I'm surprised to hear that radio advertising is is heavily more than podcasting. Um, but it's also for me, that's why I asked the demographic questions. I really want to know what the difference is between countries, because I'm an Australian in Europe, you know. So necessarily, although America is my biggest audience, I know that there is such a hunger, and English as a second language, plus English as a first language, is everyone. It's the biggest language in the world because necessarily it's the language of business. Most people in Europe will have English as a second language, most people in Latin America will not most, but a lot in Latin America, Asia, Africa, they're gonna have English as a second language, which means that's the majority language, and we've already got the benefit of doing a podcast in the majority language. You think about per capita um per capita? Uh this is an old piece of research, but if you could guess, could you name the top two countries per capita podcast consumers?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:56

Wow. Um I would guess United States because I'm biased. Um is that is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:04

No, it's not.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:05

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:05

As a percentage of their population, who listens to the most?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:08

That's the as a percentage Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:11

In gross numbers, America by far.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:14

Okay, I would go smaller, like a smaller country per capita. Small countries, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, because that would make the most sense. They have a a lower number on the bottom of the divide sign. Um is Sweden one of them? Sweden's one of them.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:30

So they're number two. But number one will surprise you.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:34

Oh well, I'm trying to think of a another country similar to Sweden. Um, is it similar to Sweden?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:41

No, it's not Sweden.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:42

It's Asian. Um Philippines. South Korea. Wow. Yeah. South Korea, South Korea's on the ball. South Korea is crushing it in culture, in in movies, in art, in music. Like South Korea's got it going on. Something's happening.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:02

Totally, totally. Yeah, for sure. One of the most bullish economies coming out of that part of the world, no doubt about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:08

Let's buy some South Korean money.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:11

Yeah, well, you get into it, man. I mean, you saw like the success of Squid Game. One of the, I think one of the beautiful things about content now generation as well, it's going to be so much more international because the mode of distribution isn't just determined by your local TV station. Whereas the only movies I watched growing up were fucking Hollywood movies. But now, because of every there's a like there's you know, Danish cinema is no joke. Like some of the best movies you'll ever watch are from fucking Denmark. South Korea is well, amazing, Mexico, amazing movies. So um, yeah, I mean, but to to talk about the podcast in question, I would echo your points. I think we're in the early days. I uh also think that largely the demographics of people that listen to podcasts are in our age bracket, and uh especially for interview podcasts, like mostly men for sure. The true crime podcasts, I mean, they're fucking killing it, but that's mostly women listening to them and also a little bit older as well, which is quite funny. News podcasts are gonna just blow uh daytime TV and radio out of the water long term. It's just impossible for it not to happen because you get the ease of access. Podcasting as a distribution is better than anything else because you listen at your own time, and that's something that no one can compete with. Um, yeah, but in terms of interview shows, man, I mean, I I want to know so badly what Joe Rogan's numbers are because he is a great signal indicator for what overall podcasting trends are, because he's the most downloaded by probably 3-4x, I would have say almost 3-4x bigger than anyone else. So he's like people's gateway drug into podcasting.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:51

And so he would be a great signal for the broader industry.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:55

Yeah, I think I think he was a better signal, perhaps, when he was just on YouTube and like anywhere. Because yeah, but uh definitely is is the biggest player and also is the earliest player, like one of the earliest, not definitely not the earliest, like there are people who are doing it before, but one of the the real the pioneers of the the podcast and game. So 100%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:26

Yeah, him alongside Tim Ferris. I think Tim Ferris was what, like 2015 or something, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:18:31

I think, yeah, I think Tim Ferris was 2013, if I'm not mistaken. Crazy. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like such a good move. And and people will be looking like in 10 years and being like, yo, he started in 2020? Like that was eons ago, right? Like, so I think it's uh it's a it's a longevity game.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:52

Yeah. Like every game, like every game is like exactly it's crazy. I also think that people will have extremely wide podcast diets as well. Interesting. Um, and that's just going to be a function of more podcasts coming out there. So, for example, I listen to a pretty general interest sport podcast, but I think it would almost get to the stage where if you're heaps into cricket, oh, American audience, if you're heaps into the NFL, you would you would have your team's podcast, then you would also have the league's podcast, and then you'd have a general interest sport podcast, and the three of them would be, you know, your sport diet. You would have 10, 15 interview uh podcasts, and you'd find way more people that you find interesting there. I just think the general the genre and the uh the niches that are going to come is just gonna get bigger and bigger and bigger. So people will consume much more of different podcasts, uh, which serves us well, obviously. Um advertising dollars, I mean, something with that's shit about podcasts at the moment is the distribution is fucked because the only way that you can get recognized is by having clout of other people's shows, or if by some fucking miracle you get in a uh in a list in like the Apple directory. Yeah. Uh so you know, I mean Discovery is so early. Discovery, that's the way I was looking for exactly. Discovery is broken at the moment, like there isn't a great distribution for discovery of podcasts.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:19

And we'll look back at that in 10 years, hopefully, and laugh. Like, wow, this service didn't didn't pop up yet, or and like there's a major like podcasting and discovery if uh if Twitter could come along and do something, but like there's there's a pr a huge problem, and someone's gonna solve it and make a billion dollars.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:40

Totally, totally. There will be a YouTube for podcasts, and it would be like uh some very sophisticated algorithm who will pick up clips, you know, and then sort of auto-generate b-roll behind it. Yeah, that way there will be algorithmic features for you to pick up on new shows. There's a guy who does it really well at the moment, he's a mate of mine. Uh, he runs the YouTube channel called Geopop, um, and it's geo it's geopolitics. Now it's all labor from him. You know, there's no sophisticated algorithm here, but he he listens to every geopolitical piece of content you can imagine. And he takes the highlights, clips them, puts in B-roll, and then gives attribution to the original podcast. But he's growing, he's got 20,000 subscribers on YouTube. Wow, and I see what he's doing as a microcosm of what could be a broader platform, general interest YouTube. You go on there, I load my home page, and it's like, oh, today I spoke about NFTs with Danny Miranda. Now I'm gonna have recommended videos like all these clips on NFTs with other podcasts. That's these sort of things will come. Um you know, so I love it.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:46

No, I I think it's true, and there's a major opportunity for YouTube itself to, you know, one thing I love is having YouTube premium. And when you do that, it's like you're basically listening to a podcast if you turn off the video aspect of it, and that gives you more ability to do other things while still consuming the content, and that's been a huge help for my uh my content consumption.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:10

Yeah, totally. Well, Danny, that was fascinating. You know what I really look forward to is in 10 years um coming back to this clip and just seeing how badly we got it all wrong. Podcasting's dead. Um, okay, so I like to leave these um three questions with as many guests as I can. Uh, the first is Is there a moment in your life that you look back on it and you just can't believe you were a part of it? It almost feels like it was too good to be true. And let me know if you need more context for that.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:45

Yeah, Gary Vaynerchuck coming on the podcast after three months when I had met him 10 years prior, and he called my mom. Like, that whole situation and story was like, How am I living this? Like, how is this my life? Um, and so yeah, that was a huge moment of like, what the hell? Um, and I I wish like one thing that I I want for my life is to be filled with moments of like that, and moments where it's like, oh my god, how am I living this life? And somebody who seems to be doing that is Pat McAfee, who you might not be familiar with. He's an NFL commentator, former player, and he just signed a massive deal with FanDuel as a podcaster, live streamer type thing. And he his whole thing is like, how am I living this? Like, how is this my life? And I want to wake up every day and feel that. And in some sense, I do. Um, but that moment getting Gary Vaynerchuk on the podcast, having that conversation with him, was that moment personified.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:48

That is an amazing story uh of Gary there calling your mom and saying, let him go. Crazy, crazy. You know, um, someone else is doing that, similar to Pat McAfee's Lex Friedman. So I actually got this question from Lex because he was talking about how he was uh practicing martial arts with George St. Pierre, and he was saying to himself, what the fuck is the idea? Exactly. Like, how does this random Ukrainian immigrant, obviously hyper genius data analyst, end up with what, the third, fourth biggest podcast in the world? The type of serendipity that's coming his way, I just don't think we can understand, you know. Like, with that type of audience celebration, you can feasibly do whatever you want. Whatever you want.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:32

Yeah. Totally. And so Brian Keating is someone Dr. Brian Keating is an astrophysicist who just went on Lex Friedman's podcast, who I've had on mine, and who you would love, it seems like, from your thoughtfulness and your the way you ask questions and what you're interested in, that you guys would get along. Um, but when he showed me yesterday, like he sent me a message of that podcast that he was on, I was like, yo, is that photoshopped? Like him and Lex Friedman? Like, what is going on? My mind is blown. Like, Dr. Brian Keating is a legend and should be on that show, and was on Tom Biliew's show before, but I'm like, yo, this is so crazy. How what's going on? Like, even that was like, what's happening for him? Yeah. So very cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:20

That's cool. I'll uh I'll I'll look into Brian Keating. Yeah, definitely. Sounds interesting. Yeah, I think anyone who's going Alex is pretty good taste. Exactly. Um, all right, Danny, two more. Um, what is a country that you're very bullish on looking into the future? Country you're bullish on.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:40

You asked this to everyone, and I've mentioned South Korea before. Wow, what talk about serendipity. Um, South Korea is one for sure. Um, I would say El Salvador because the Bitcoin thing. Uh, they were the first company to accept Bitcoin. I think that's gonna play a huge role in the 21st century. Um, but let me think of a country, another country perhaps that I'm bullish on. I would say I don't nothing comes to mind right away, but what my inclination is the countries that are going to balance freedom and um freedom and and growth. Like freedom seem and decentralization seems to be such a a critical role in the 21st century because the internet and because more people have more access to more things. So I think the countries that succeed the most are gonna be the countries that promote freedom the most. And also, it could be completely wrong, right? Saying that, because it could be China who is or the United States is totalitarian, more totalitarian, and or it could be Australia, where it's like um, you know, it could be the complete opposite of that. My inclination is like people are gonna want to flock to countries that give them more freedom. I don't know if that's true. I don't know if that and so countries that promote freedom will therefore grow more. That's a thesis. We'll see if that thesis is correct or not, but but South Korea, El Salvador are two that come to mind right away.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:20

Nice, nice, fantastic. First entry for El Salvador that we have had South Korea before. Uh but you're totally right, you know, and also with the modern economy, it's less credentialized and it's also more distributed, more working at home. People really can feasibly, as long as the time zone works, just fuck off to a country they want to be in. You know, like if my girlfriend wasn't well, country I'm most bullish on.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:45

Mexico by far.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:46

Mexico. Well, oh, India. India's one that I want to add as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:50

Okay, nice. Because of uh similarly crypto reasons.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:55

Yeah, crypto reasons, but a lot of people who seem uh very expensive. It's like you look at the United States and their perspective on technology, it's like the United States is ready to like demonize the technology. In India, from what I understand, it's like they're looking at technology as their way out and excitement and opportunity and optimism. And I feel like the United States had that towards a lot of different technologies and ideas in the past and may still have it now. But if you look at the internet and if you look at um like going uh like the moon, right? Like the United States was very forward and like optimistic about all these things. Um and so I feel like India today has that same perspective. You were saying though, before before I before we forget your girlfriend, you were saying something about your girlfriend.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:50

So yeah, yeah, no, I was saying that the only reason I'm in Stockholm is because of her, otherwise I would um, you know, live in a different place uh that's more suited to my lifestyle. I like to surf and you know drink cheap coffee, so it would be somewhere in Spain or something, but um, you know, so be it. I mean, that's also the great part of this distributed economy as well. I mean, I'm here in Sweden, it doesn't make a difference where I am in the world. I can do the exact same work that I'm doing.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:18

Um, but to comment on your India uh analysis there, I as well agree with you, super bullish on India, but it's like been a perennially disappointing, bullish thesis for the last 30, 40 years. They've got over a billion people, like really good education, but there's um there's like cultural things they've got to get over. This is a super ingrained caste system. I don't know how familiar you are with it, but it's this idea of having classes, right? Um, and it's very difficult to move with uh in between the classes. So at the top, at the top few, there's a great economist article. I'll send it to you after, because there's a bunch of Indian immigrants who are tech CEOs in Silicon Valley, and they all come from the same caste, right? Which is one of the most prosperous. So I think and um Balaji Sri Varsan is a really good guy speaking about India as well, crazy bullish on it. Um, but I've never heard him comment on that, you know, little wrinkle. The fact that there is spectacular opportunity, but for such a small populace uh percentage within the billion dollar populace.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:26

Yeah, what an interesting question to ask him. Or yeah, it would be great.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:31

Do you know him? Maybe uh we can I've tried a couple of times. Crowdfund Ballogy to come on. Yeah. Um, all right, Danny. This is the last question, my favorite question. You're a podcaster, I think you'll appreciate this one more than most of the guests. If you could witness a conversation between any two people of history, dead or alive, no language barrier. So if you could listen to a podcast, who would they be?

SPEAKER_02 1:30:54

Dude, that's a question I'm gonna need to think on and really uh explore. I think Ramdas would be in that conversation. Uh Ramdas is no longer in his body, um, but he's somebody I would love to hear speak in his prime to somebody completely unlike Ramdas, probably. Maybe like I would love to hear Ramdas and Jesus Christ have a conversation. Maybe GPT-3 can help that occur. Yeah. Yo, it's Ramdas. Ramdas is the He's a a Harvard, a former Harvard professor who got into psychedelics when he was at Harvard, got kicked out of Harvard, went to India, got a guru, started living as a as a monk, basically, came back to the United States, gave a bunch of lectures, and he is somebody who when Mike Posner went and visited Ramdas, he said he felt love within him for the next uh like eight hours of the day. And so I don't know, he's somebody who I think has advanced very spiritually and has spent a lot of time with himself, self-awareness, and so and I just read his biography, so recency bias in my part there. Um, but um yeah, no, he he's somebody I would love to just witness have a conversation, and I might be able to get that with GPT-3 bringing in his uh his thoughts and ideas, which is crazy.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:46

Yeah, that's cool. I'm not familiar with that. What is that?

SPEAKER_02 1:32:49

GPT three is this technology that allows you to just type in like a Google search. Imagine Ramdas and Jesus Christ having a conversation, and then it will actually spit out a conversation that is pretty remarkably similar to what they would say. I think I saw one with like Barack Obama and Steve Jobs, and and it was like it was like what? Like I could imagine both of them saying exactly those things.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:19

So that is something to look into for technology, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:22

So, like we were talking about the next 10 years being crazy, like imagine that just being in everyone's pocket and being able to Google those questions and post those conversations, like and showing the people who you wished would have a conversation together, like their truths, and that's another reason why I feel such an obligation to put out content is like I am documenting for my future children their my truth and putting that out there so that when it becomes easier to transmit, easier to I'll be able to live with them in a way and they'll have my ideas and thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:57

Well, Mr. Miranda, yes, sir. I uh I thought that was a terrific podcast. Thank you so much, mate.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:04

This was terrific, and uh I'm really appreciative for what you do and the space you give and just the comfortability you make the guest and the thoughtfulness of the questions and pushing on certain things, and I got smarter as a result of having this conversation. So thank you so much, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:24

Wow, that's really nice of you to say. I appreciate that. Cheers.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:27

Cheers.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:28

Well, I hope you enjoyed that. Quite a good tip on leaving the attachment in a cold email. Killer tip for the aspiring podcasters out there. And um, for the aspiring podcasters out there, I you know, I'm in the trenches with you. For any of us that have a podcast that can feel like there is zero response or care at all for what we're doing at times. But at the end of the day, it has to be for yourself. So just crack on, put the head down and leave the metrics in the corner unopened in the room where they should be. The distribution of podcasting is as fat-tailed as they get, which is just to say the majority of returns happen at the absolute end of the total distribution. Whilst Danny is likely in the top 0.5% of podcasts, he's still light years away from the top 0.1%. And then while someone might be in the top 0.1%, they are still light years from the top 0.0001%. The likes of Tim Ferris and Joe Rogan, where the majority of the upside is captured. And so, much similar to other type of creative domains, whether that's music, writing, acting, the majority of the returns are totally unevenly distributed to the very, very few at the top of the field. So at the end of the day, downloads cannot be the reason that we do this. It's a non-sustainable strategy. So it was very cool to speak with Danny just and to be able to reflect on it in hindsight about you know why the benefits that this podcast might be for me, irrespective of the download, irrespective if it ever got to the golden monetization point. Literally, if it just maintained a good excuse for me to get in touch with people whose time is otherwise very, very scarce. Uh, that in itself is an amazing value, even though it might not be directly monetizable. But I hope you know what I mean. That's just a maybe an alienating message to whoever's listening to this that happens to be themselves a podcaster. So, anyway, focus on the chat, focus on your own interests, and as you would have seen, I think Danny is a brilliant example of that. And you just must lean into your own interests. You can't feign an interest for too long. People will start to catch on. So, what do I want to do with this podcast? This is now the final sort of message that I want to leave with you. My my ambition is to corner the podcast market for eclectic curiosities in whatever country it is you're listening in from, whatever demographic you might be. So that's the plan. And uh the only real way to realize that plan is to generate some sort of uh momentum in the various algorithms and distribution platforms for podcasting. So that requires reviews. So if you're on Spotify, if you're listening to this on Spotify, it's very easy. Uh congrats to Spotify, it's the first it's one of the first good things they've done with a user experience. They have a famously bad user experience, but leaving reviews is extraordinarily easy. So just go up the top there, drop a fiver. If you're listening on uh Apple Podcasts, swipe that bad boy up, drop a fiver, say something nice in the comments, and then I would encourage you all to take it a step further. Include the family, include the friends next time you're at work. Pull people over and insist that they leave five-star reviews for the Curious Worldview podcast. You know, you might be in a meeting, there might be a very serious agenda and topic uh to be had, but instead insist that before the meeting moves on, people leave reviews for the Curious Worldview podcast. We all have several members of our family. There's no reason why we can't get two, three degrees of separation away. If we could get a lot of reviews, well, that would be the most amazing thing you could ever do. Thank you so much for listening this far. I really appreciate it. And again, to the powerful, the great and powerful. I think I'm ripping off someone there. Is that joke? Cheers, Danny. You're a legend.