Curious Worldview

99: Angelica Oung | A Taiwanese Journalist’s Response To Nancy Pelosi

• Angelica Oung • Episode 99

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🎙️: https://atlasgeographica.com/angelica-oung-taiwan-nancy-pelosi/

Angelica Oung | The Curious Worldview Podcast #99

The following is a conversation with Angelica Oung on Taiwan & Nancy Pelosi. This is Angelica’s third appearance on this podcast.

In This Podcast About Taiwan & Nancy Pelosi, You Can Expect To Hear About…

  • Why Did Pelosi Do This?
  • What Is The Taiwanese Response?
  • How Does This Change The Invasion Calculus?

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Episodes Of The Curious Worldview Podcast Mentioned.

Links To Angelica Oung

SPEAKER_00

Jella Gong returns to the podcast. She's a Taiwanese American journalist and formerly a writer for the Taipei Times and RE News. She's now worked to become among one of the most trusted voices in Taiwan's offshore wind industry, writing for an own publication, Taiwan Offshore Wind Unredacted. And as well, she writes for a very popular substack, Taipeiology. Now she returns the podcast today, obviously, well maybe not obviously, but in response to all the uproar and fur that happened over the weekend because of uh Nancy Pelosi's uh trip down into uh Taipei. So uh Angelica went around interviewing a bunch of uh local Taiwanese uh to get their response to see what they thought about it, because something that is uh quite surprising, or at least it was surprising to me, when I first spoke to Angelica was her response to how the Taiwanese people just react very stoically to this existential sort of looming threat, uh constant looming threat that that is China. And as you'll see, the response is um actually changing a little bit, which uh is concerning, especially if you live on that um beautiful little island. So in this podcast we speak about that. We speak about um Angelica's post in her most recent post in Typeology, which speaks about these interviews that she conducted. And as well, we open up more uh broadly on how the calculus might have changed when it comes to the potential or at least the threat of China actually coming in and invading Taiwan. So, with all that out of the way, with absolutely no further ado, please hang around to the end of the podcast because uh there I will explain what my ambition is for the show. But here I give you Angelica. So it's that time again, Angelica. Taiwan is in the news.

SPEAKER_02

That's right. Uh well, you know, uh editors are calling me from across the world. Friends are asking me if I'm doing okay. So I guess this week Taiwan must be the most dangerous place in the world again.

SPEAKER_00

So uh maybe you could just tell us what happened. We sort of know very surface level that Nancy Pelosi, the very prominent US politician, speaker of the House, I believe the second most uh um powerful politician in America, uh, made a trip to Taiwan.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, well, she's certain certainly third in line for the presidency. And um she's also got a long time history of standing up for democracy. In fact, when she was a very young congresswoman, she went to China in the wake of Tian Min Square and and you know insisted on visiting Tian Square and honoring the people who died there. So she's got a long history. Um that plus her prominence made her visit really, really triggering for the Chinese. Um so you know, they've been you know banging on their war drum for uh weeks and weeks, saying uh don't go to Taiwan or there will be consequences. Um I believe. You mean the Chinese have been the Chinese, yes. Um the a in fact when she met with Biden uh uh just shortly before, uh I believe he told Biden those who play with fire might get burned. Um slightly ominous. Um but I think the more the more they say things like that, the more Pelosi could not back out. There's no way she could back out um after that. Uh and so she came and they didn't do anything while she was here. But as soon as she left, um they announced some drills, and most seriously, there were a few missiles that flew over Taiwan and landed in Japanese waters. So um yeah, there's it it's it's actually um of course it's terrible, but it's also really, really interesting for me. Sure. I mean, scary though? Um actually I don't feel any short-term fear because I I think most people don't. I talked to like 15 people because editors obviously want to know, everybody wanted to know what are the Taiwanese thinking. And most Taiwanese are not worried at all for the short term, and neither am I, and let me tell you why. It's because uh she has got a lot going on at home. So uh you might have heard the economy's doing terrible, his draconian COVID-0 policy is not working at all. Um, and he's trying to get his third term, um, which will be unprecedented in uh Cismao. So um he's got a lot on his plate. This is not the time anybody thinks he's gonna want to launch an invasion. Uh especially uh we don't think that the PRC are actually ready yet. So in the short term, we are not concerned about a kinetic war. But this is an escalation, an uh undoubtedly an escalation. And um I think maybe in the medium and the long term, um in the long term it's all the same. We know that China has it in their plans to attack if they can. Um so the long-term prognosis hasn't changed either. I think it's in that medium term that things are a little bit dicey. You definitely see um this time, uh, if you look at the map where they're announced the drills, the six sites for the military drill goes all around the island of Taiwan. And uh so what they have going on is actually something interesting. I never considered it. It's almost like a virtual blockade. Um, so when I previously thought of a blockade scenario, I um envisaged actual vessels uh parked in the sea, preventing passage from other vessels. But there's they merely announced, well, you know, missiles could be falling out of the sky at this location. And even if it's a huge location, you know that international marine commercial traffic, there's no way they'd risk it. So um just by announcing, well, we might be doing missile tests here and here and here and here, there's actually already been like significant disruption in commercial traffic, including LNG shipments, which um is something we really have to watch in Taiwan.

SPEAKER_00

It's not good when you're having um straight line equivalents drawn between you and and Mao. I'm sure there are many other equivalents as well as the city. Oh my goodness, as well.

SPEAKER_02

Uh unfortunately so. Um yeah, it's uh he it's really, really uh I think unprecedented, and uh unfortunately because he's so out of line compared to the previous Chinese leaders, and um we can talk about, I mean, obviously none of them were saints or angels, but at the core you feel like there's some rationality there. There's somebody you can deal with. They might do terrible things, but at the bottom of it all, there's a calculus about you know uh risk-benefit analysis, they're very rational. Um but with Xi, I think this is the first time with a Chinese leader um in my living lifetime, anyhow, ever since I I came of age politically, where I feel like, my goodness, this could be a um madman surrounded by yes man situation, right? Because when you have yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So um you know the reason why I propose to speak with you today is to speak about your most recent Substack in typology. Um speaking about the sort of locals response to yet another Chinese threat. But before we speak about that, I um wanted to first ask what your thoughts were. Um you know, and you're a former writer for the Taipei Times, you know as well, have your own publication. So you are well informed when it comes to answering these sort of questions. But what uh is the conceivable reason why Pelosi would make this trip at this stage? I was reading in The Economist this morning that the uh Biden administration like almost explicitly asked her not to do it. Um and obviously once it was announced they couldn't back down, um, so they were forced to go ahead and do it. But uh conceivably there is no obvious strategic reason for this trip to have done, and it's just unnecessarily poking the dragon. So um why did this even happen in the first place?

SPEAKER_02

Well, um I don't know. I really don't know. The only um reason I can think of is that Nancy Pelosi is uh getting really old and she wanted to do this from a personal point of view before she retires.

SPEAKER_00

I just can't yeah, I just can't believe that that's the reason because how unbelievably selfish would that be if that if it turns out that she just wanted to, you know, add another line to her resume before she retires.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I'm sure this is going to do well for her because once she I once she did decide to come, it's not like Taiwan can be like, no, no, not a good time. Maybe not. It's it's like once she decided to come, we have to say welcome. America is our ally. And um to give her the full benefit of the doubt, let's say she did this purely because she thought that this would be the best way to enhance Taiwan American relations. Um and for Taiwan it might be worth it because even if we did poke the dragon, if the result is a closer, closer ties with America, that's worth it. Because ultimately, what is keeping Taiwan safe right now is its international allies.

SPEAKER_00

So in the first podcast we did together almost over a year ago, what stood out to me or something that stood out to me the most from it was your response to how the Taiwanese people think about this almost constant uh existential threat that looms over them. Because they are this um liberal democracy. I mean liberal compared to China. Uh seemingly sort of sovereign island of twenty-four million people with one of the most important companies in the world that is uh totally central to globalization. So they are this amazing little culture and island, and they distinctly are different from China and these sort of factors. So there is this constant looming threat that China, the big bad uh you know dragon, is gonna come and take them over. Anyway, your response to it was yeah, no one really uh thinks about it, or it doesn't bother them at all. They just sort of go on with life, they just brush it off. It's no factor. Um which I thought was almost inconceivable. So uh that was an amazing response. But it seems like even in response to this latest thing with Pelosi, uh, which is what your whole typology article is about, it's sort of the same reaction.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, absolutely. And um I want to separate being being scared with being panicked, with I mean, there it to me there is a range of reaction. We have some people who j are just compl in complete denial or uh ostrich, head in the sand, and there are some people, mostly younger actually, that I think actually are thinking about it in exactly the right way. And they're not scared in the short run either, but they are fully aware that um a Chinese invasion is a possible threat, especially in the medium and long term. I think we all saw what happened to Ukraine, and let's not forget the people in Ukraine were some of the last in the world, except that Russia could possibly attack. It's just really when you're living under these circumstances, and that's an ominous point. It well, it is because in order to get on with your daily lives, um, there's a certain amount of of wishful thinking and cope, right? You you you can't you can't live your lives while um constantly um under threat. So um how do you balance being able to um get on with your life? And also it's really important not to be afraid because again, that would almost be playing into Chinese communist hands because if they can intimidate the Taiwanese, then they'll just do that more until we fold, right? And then we don't have our country either. Um, even if we and they wouldn't even have to fight for it. So um it takes a lot of it takes a lot of maturity to deal with um a um low uncertainty but high consequence threat in a day-in-day-out way, logically.

SPEAKER_00

Perhaps you could refer to some of the um individuals you stoke with. Absolutely. Some of them had you know very telling responses.

SPEAKER_02

I I feel like it's it's really interesting how how cleanly, and I didn't expect this, they the responses broke really cleanly into age groups. And with the I'll just start with the old people, and they're the ones who are not worried because they don't think that Xi Jinping would be quote unquote that stupid, or they don't think they they just don't to them it's inconceivable, or maybe they live through too much. But um it's what's interesting about this group of people is that they still feel a sense of kinship with um with China, and uh they they could have been people who um let's let's say my landlady, I'm very sure her um she was born in Taiwan, but her um parents probably came over from China in the aftermath of World War II. She's a retired bureaucrat, and she has what I call a deep blue viewpoint, meaning this is a very aligned with the old KMT. Um she called Which are very nationalistic. Very nationalistic and um we're talking about nationalistic hyper conservative from China because the KMT were the losers in the Chinese Civil War in the wake of the Second World War. And um Mao Mao's Communist Party um kicked their ass and they ran over to Taiwan, which they ran as a dictatorship until basically the middle of the 80s. Um so she's like, well, Nancy Nancy Pelosi is an old witch and an arrogant American, and President Thai is weak and corrupt, and uh it's a very, very marginal viewpoint. And um she also thinks that if she does decide to invade, it'll be quote unquote over in days. Um I have another friend who's older, and he's a retired engineer in his 60s, and he also has this language that shows that there's some kinship with China. It's like, oh, what what would what would Xi Jinping why would Xi Jinping want to turn Taiwan into a burning husk? And you know, and uh also we're all descendants of the yellow emperor. This is very um typical language for somebody who sees being Chinese as something that's very blood-driven. So if you're descendant from a Chinese, then you are Chinese in some essential way, and uh just very out of step now with current thinking. Um so, anyhow, those are the older generation. Um, I would say 50 and above. Then you have the working folks, you know. I like I love this. My plumber was he he just had the the most, you know. I was asking him, well, aren't you worried about an invasion? No, I don't think there will be an invasion. What if there is an invasion? I will worry about it when it happens. What do you think of Pelosi coming to Taiwan? I don't think about politics. Your drain is fixed, you know. Like very this is this is very typical of what I call the working age uh people, like not worried because worrying does no good approach. Uh my roommates, uh Ian and Bob, they fall into this category two. Um, basically, it's just one of those things where um they might intellectually agree that there might be a risk, but uh, you know, they are just not gonna be worried about it because they don't feel any personal sense of agency. I feel like it doesn't matter, it's nothing I can do to change things one way or another. Um, and then lastly, you know, I interviewed a few people who are younger. I unfortunately I'm older myself. Um I don't know anybody who's like truly like Gen X, so the Gen X viewpoint is missing. But these are folks in their 20s. Um, and out of everybody I interviewed, I think they actually have the most nuanced take on the situation. Uh, both actually acknowledge that it is. Um, let me just read the response here. Um Taiwan didn't get more dangerous overnight, but we've been worried since the war on Ukraine. And that's when we realized maybe not yet, but it can happen here. That is, in fact, ultimately China's plan. So I feel like that's just clarity. Come on, that's just clarity. And um uh this guy, he's a very professional young person I know in renewable energy, and he says a lot of his friends are actually taking this fairly seriously, going to civil defense seminars, and one has even decided to um study uh military studies uh uh in response to the invasion from the Ukraine.

SPEAKER_00

Um that's a very tangible um sort of note of how people might be responding and as well how likely they might think that they might genuinely have to defend themselves.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. And here's here's what I find really, really interesting is that um he is just as um he thinks that false narratives which induce learned helplessness is just as damaging to Taiwan's survival as missiles or fighter jets. Uh because there could you explain now? Well, there's and this is pervasive. This used to be pervasive in Taiwan. Um there's this idea that's like, well, China's so much bigger than us, China's so much stronger than us. If they decided to lift a finger, we'd be overrun instantly. It'll be over in a day. We don't have a chance. And that induced a lot of fear over the years. I mean, we're talking about Taiwan not being afraid now. Well, that used to be much more afraid in the past. So um definitely, even I would say the last time the Taiwanese were seriously concerned, security-wise, was probably like in a tangible way, in a, oh, we have people flying out of Taiwan out of fear kind of way, was probably 1995-96, the third Taiwan Straits crisis. Um, back then people were really scared, and it was just totally accepted that if China wanted to, they can just snap their fingers and Taiwan would be overrun. And the interesting thing is we know that is so not true now, and it certainly wasn't true then. Now the PRC is already so much stronger, so much better equipped, and so much more of a force to be reckoned with than it was back in 1995, 1996. But back in 1995-96, I think the perception is that they they are they are just uh going to overwhelm us, which which is funny, right? Because if it's so easy, how come they never did it? It's certainly not out of the goodness of their hearts, right? So um, even now, um, I think uh one quote I really like from my friend, he's he says, like, you know, fear comes from the unknown. And the knowledge is, well, we know it's impossible. We used to believe that China can take Taiwan in a day. Now we know that is objectively impossible. Um, it's used to create an atmosphere of fear, which is in fact a serious threat. Um we can can China uh take Taiwan? Yes, it's a possibility. In fact, they have done war games and the US and RAN Corporation, and um the US doesn't always win. It doesn't mean that China will win, but the US doesn't always win when they play the Play out the war games. Um, but we know that the Chinese military is continually adding to its capabilities. Um, this means that there might be a window, like a sweet spot, between um now they're not ready, but then after they're ready, uh their capabilities are in fact going to decline after a certain point. Uh they have uh you know a baby bust, so they're gonna lose the military-age personnel, and she himself is gonna get old. So um that is that is why we we don't think it's gonna be this year, uh, but we think it might be sometime in the f in the not too distant future. So another really interesting young person is my ex-roommate, and uh she actually regularly goes to a civil defense um group uh on the weekends, and they do things like first aid training or sometimes they train in the mountains with airsoft rifles. Um, and they're they're basically preparing for insurgency, and this is more hardcore. This is more hardcore than I have ever come across because they're not just talking about oh, you know, if it's a blockade, where are we gonna get our water? This is about okay, the Chinese have taken over the island, how do we fight back? And I asked her I asked her, you know, do you think like I I wanted to ask this delicately, you know, because the thought I had in my mind is well, if the Chinese have in fact occupied Taiwan, then it's going to be very difficult um to uh kind of uh rise up and throw them off as opposed to defend. It's easier to defend, right, than to overturn. Um, but as far as she's concerned, um Taiwan has nothing to do with China and it wouldn't be acceptable to her to live under Chinese rule. So um yeah, it it's it's she is really hardcore. I don't think I she might be just as much of an outlier, but you know, I when I heard that I was really surprised myself.

SPEAKER_00

We were all so like impressed and surprised um and just in awe of how uh brave the Ukrainian people have been and still are in resistance. You know, and I have interviewed several times in this podcast a guy called Alexander Kuchenko, who is very, very similar to me in demographic, you know, in life, ambition, everything. You know, in an alternative universe, I could easily be this guy. And he's there picking up guns, shooting at people. It's it's so hard for me to fathom. How do you think the the Taiwanese will respond? Do you think it would be in a similar fashion?

SPEAKER_02

Well, it's really, really hard for me to say because you don't know this until you've been tested. You can't know. And I don't want to err in either direction. I don't want to say, oh yeah, that's right, we we hate the Chinese, we we won't be able to tolerate it, we will fight. I don't want to say that because that might not happen. But then I also don't want to say, oh no, we're soft, we're not strong like the Ukrainians. We you know, unless they challenge us to a StarCraft tournament, we're done. You know, I don't want to say that either because you don't know.

SPEAKER_01

Like, I remember in the aftermath of the Ukrainian war, um, just on LinkedIn, you know, I'm on LinkedIn a lot for my business, and you just see those people like you know, picking up guns and saying, Well, hello guys, I'm a project manager and I love my job, but uh now my country needs me, so I'm gonna be doing this for a while.

SPEAKER_02

Sava Ukraini, and you're like, Wow, wow, uh and you're you're really I I would let me let me put it this way. Um, I think the young people of Taiwan are definitely moved by the bravery and probably inspired by the bravery of the young of the people of Ukraine. I shouldn't just say young people because it's you know, we've we've seen amazing resistance from all ages there. But I personally, as you know, somebody who's more in the squarely in the working age category, I still think I have that mentality of you know, maybe a little bit more like learned helplessness. Um, I I can't see myself, I I don't know, who knows? Like, you don't know what will happen when the chips are down. What I would prefer is for us not to be ever in that situation.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, Jesus, absolutely. Yeah. Which makes it so much more egregious that a US politician might come simply to feed her own ego.

SPEAKER_02

It it can not be possible that that is the I I don't want to say anything more because you know what? What's done is done, and all I we can hope is that she came, and what it implies is a an upgrade in Taiwan US relations. And uh again, we don't know. Like here we are saying, well, Pelosi's owed it's it's her last year, maybe that's why she came, but who knows? Maybe maybe it goes deeper than that, and we just are not privy to that information. I do find it very, very troubling that Biden did come out and and say this is not a good time. Um, and again, you know, it's like uh why would she say that? It's like it if um it feels like if there is um lack of consensus within the US, um it it makes it harder for everybody else to respond. Uh but in here in Taiwan, I don't think we get a choice. You know, Nancy Pelosi wants to come to Taiwan. Uh and she's obviously coming to Taiwan, and all we can do is welcome her. Um, but in fact, in fact, people have done this, and um, you know, I think you and I maybe are like, okay, let's hope that this works out well because if it really doesn't, we don't know what it's for. But I would say the um vast majority of people in Taiwan are are just happy. They're like, wow, you know, it's it seems like the Democrats are also um finally on our side because I think there was a perception because um the US actually started approaching Taiwan, uh much approaching much closer relations with Taiwan, with Donald Trump. Um there's and just historically, the the Republicans have always been much more friendly to Taiwan than the Democrats, who have been the real politics party. And um, well, let's just let's just it's in the face of all this unknown, let's give Nancy Pelosi the maximum um benefit of the doubt. She came to Taiwan because it's her last chance to upgrade US Taiwan relations and show that the Democrats have Taiwan's back. I remember, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And ultimately, you you want and need desperately the US in your pocket.

SPEAKER_02

Not in our pocket, but uh as our allies, as our staunch allies. At your take. Exactly. Because we will never and you know, a lot of people complain. Sometimes, you know, journalist in Taiwan complain, you know, it's like, oh, everybody is just treating Taiwan like a pawn. But unfortunately, there is a greater game at work here. And uh Taiwan is a pawn, that's just an acceptance of reality, but we can be a very powerful pawn, and uh we can you know uh play the game in a way that ensures our own survival. So uh it's not about um we will never it we will never be able to control the US or China. We can only influence them and and hope that they will uh be be in good coordination, right? And um in fact I think for Taiwan, you know, it it is this the sense of how to um how to be in a somewhat disempowered position but still act wisely and preserve yourself. Um I okay, let's let's let's look at this in the most positive possible way. I I remember when Trump reached out to Taiwan, and uh basically I don't think he was a super thoughtful politician either. Um in fact, we know from Michael Bolton's book that he wasn't really a true friend of Taiwan, while he was you know sprinkling diplomatic favors and uh um being, you know, just being fairly careless about um approaching Taiwan and being friendly. Um we also know that he had no intention of coming to Taiwan's aid if there was ever a hot war situation. Michael Bolton described it in his book. He was just, there's no way, China's right there, we're so far away. How can we do anything? Waka walka waka. So it was a very irresponsible politician, but despite that, um ultimately uh sometimes in international relations, you know, president matters so much, he just set so many precedents of of China, uh of s first of all, of US and China being at odds with the trade war, and then Taiwan and the US being friendly, that ultimately I think it's it's had a fairly beneficial effect. So um, in a way, I don't I don't need to know what's what Nancy Perosi's real motive is. It's just like, okay, let's see what comes out of this. Totally about the consequences, not the not the motives.

SPEAKER_00

Lovely. Well, look, we said we'd keep it short, so um I'll leave on this one. Uh how do you how do you think that these events have changed the calculus that China might actually invade? Have they changed it at all? Changed the timeline, changed the likelihood? How do you think it's changed that how do you think these events have actually influenced the real question and issue?

SPEAKER_02

I think these events have been consequential. But um whether it makes Taiwan safer or less safe in the long term has a lot to do with how we respond to it from this point on. Now, I actually want to go back to a point I made much earlier in this podcast about how uh China's drills were so interesting to me. And I don't mean just like, oh, interesting, you know, we're all gonna die. What I mean is if you look at the placement of those uh six drill areas, it's so obvious that they're at least have thought deeply about a blockade scenario. And that has been something that's been floated, it's been mooted, but I feel like nobody's truly taking it seriously as an invasion scenario. How are we gonna defend against that? Now, very interestingly, because um we are so dependent on liquefied natural gas here in Taiwan, the Minister of Economic Affairs made a statement saying, don't worry. We have 11 days worth of liquefied natural gas on hand. Now, first of all, really we shouldn't worry because we have 11 days supplies. To me, that doesn't seem like very much in a in a siege scenario. A blockade is basically a siege scenario. Um secondly, I happen to know it's not true because I have a lot of industry sources. And because Taiwan only has two uh LNG receiving terminal, that becomes a cap on how much we can store on our island. And in the summer, and there's been record usage, so I know it hasn't been lower than usual. In the summer, the supply is about seven days, not eleven. So to me, it's deeply, deeply problematic. Um, seven a seven-day supply of one of your key electricity generating fuels, it's not something you want to roll into a blockade with. It's food for thought. So if if if this scenario somehow um triggered awareness within the government that this is something we need to defend against and this is something we need to make ourselves strong against, then maybe it's a good thing. Maybe maybe if this happens, it's a good thing. If that happens, it's a bad thing. It's really hard to say, uh, but I I would say as a principal, I'm not looking forward to a barrage of of future US politicians coming to Taiwan for no clear reason. Um because because, you know, we we came out of this okay. For all the storm and drank that uh the the Chinese drummed up, um they what they did um was you know pretty it's not great, but um it feels more like a release of uh of anger um and um also to save face, right? Because they they they stirred up such a domestic furor, you know. Basically, you have netizens in in China thinking it's time to take back Taiwan. So they had to do something.

SPEAKER_00

Can you can you comment on what they did? Say, for instance, you've mentioned these um these sort of um like the tanks were turned towards the beach. Um there are a bunch of sort of military expressions of look how strong we are. Can you just say explicitly what they did to sort of release that anger and say that?

SPEAKER_02

I I think that um the most serious thing that they did, I there were like I don't know what exercises there were, and but the most serious thing they did was 11 missiles, some of which flew right over Taiwan and fell into Japanese waters. To me, a flyover that is as aggressive as you can get without actually hitting anything. Another thing that's really aggressive about those exercises is how uh the areas, the designated areas cut into our territorial waters. We're not talking about the air defense identification zone. That's you know, that's pointless. It's huge, it's so huge that it part of it actually cuts over a part of China itself, so it's meaningless. Um, but we're talking about within 12 nautical miles of the land. That is actually, you know, that is actually infringing according to international law, they have infringed upon our sovereignty. They have basic that that could be a an act of war. We decided to interpret it that way. Of course, we're just we don't want to interpret that way. We very wisely am not interpreting it that way, but it's that serious. Um but meanwhile, you know, their netizens are are still like disappointed. They're like, that's not much of a show, so all right.

SPEAKER_00

Well, Angelica, anything that we uh left out?

SPEAKER_02

No, I think that's a that's about it. Um it's it's always a pleasure, and uh I really hope that the next time we talk, it'll might be about something else.

SPEAKER_00

Well, actually, I reckon we should next time do energy. Energy Taiwan, energy China, and Southeast Asia energy. Um, because that's as we were speaking about off-air, you know, geothermal, deep interest of mine. Absolutely. Your business is in wind energy. So um I think that would be fun.

SPEAKER_02

I would love to. There's a lot going on in the offshore wind industry all over Asia. We can talk about that, we can talk about wind in Taiwan, and we can just talk about energy in general. It's just uh such a big press and topic right now in the world. But I look forward to that conversation.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, for example, um Tim Harcourt, an Australian economist, was on the show and he was speaking about Western Australian liquid natural gas now sort of being rediverted to South Korea and Japan because they no longer want to take any of the Russian stuff. You know, maybe Taiwan could uh be an energy importer from Australia. I think we already are.

SPEAKER_02

We already we take a lot of Australian coal and natural gas. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, maybe our state-owned utility company actually owns a coal mine in Australia, I'm not sure. So it's a very long-term supply situation, but of course, we also don't want to be burning fossil fuels forever.

SPEAKER_00

No, well, we'll leave it there. Thank you so much, Angelica.

SPEAKER_02

Thanks so much, Ryan.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you again, Angelica. And to you, my dear listener, thank you as well for listening. If this is the first time that you've tuned into this podcast, then I just want to quickly sort of explain what my ambition is for the show. My hope is to corner the podcast market for eclectic curiosities in whatever country, location, demographic it is that you're tuning in from. So here today, uh Angelica and I spoke about Taiwan and a contemporary political issue. But broadly, if you zoom out and look at the whole library of the podcast, you'll see that the uh topics range, they vary, and it just follows whatever my own sort of interests are. So most recently there was uh Matthew Dix speaking about the power of storytelling uh before that, Nicholas Shackson uh about the cancerous world of offshore finance. Next week is going to be Christopher Turner, who is a 25-year CIA veteran. So the topics vary quite a lot, but what I'm hoping is that we have enough similar interests that every now and again a podcast will come through this feed that uh deeply resonates with you. And then hopefully I and the guest will be able to deliver uh a piece of audio that also resonates with you. So that's my hope for the podcast, um corner the podcast market for eclectic curiosities in whatever country it is listening in from. However, huge limitation to making that happen is discoverability. So I would encourage you to please leave five-star reviews, whether that's on Spotify, Apple, whatever other platform you might be listening in on, leave nice, healthy, fat, juicy reviews, pump that good juice into the algorithm. And nothing more from me. All the best. Ciao.