112: Martin Schibbye | Lessons From A Life Of Adventure & Investigative Journalism

https://cardsofqatar.com/sv/

🎙️: https://atlasgeographica.com/martin-schibbye/

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Martin Schibbye is one of Sweden’s most incredible investigative journalists, the founder of blankspot, and author of too many extraordinary stories to mention.

This podcast with Martin breaks down into three distinct chapters…

• Chapter One – Cards Of Qatar (FIFA World Cup 2022)
• Chapter Two – 438 Days & Ethiopian Prison
• Chapter Three – Martin & The Economics Of Freelance Journalism

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• 00:00 – Introduction
• CH1
• 03:11 – Cards Of Qatar (Migrant Deaths – FIFA World Cup 2022)
• 24:42 – Doha & The FIFA World Cup
• 1:01:00 – 7,000 Deaths?
• 1:11:32 – Freelance Economics & How Long Have You Been Working On This Story?
• 1:22:22 – Goals For Cards Of Qatar
• CH2
• 1:30:00 – 438 Days
• 1:43:57 – Physical & Psychological Abuse In Captivity
• 1:48:57 – Carl Bildt & Lundin Energy
• 1:56:20 – Prison Life & A Kafka-esque Show Trial
• 2:12:42 – Martin’s Ability To Empathise
• 2:17:57 – Risk & More On Prison Life
• 2:41:12 – How Did This Experience Change Martin?
• CH3
• 2:49:50 – Martin’s Upbringing
• 3:03:22 – The Economics Of Freelance Journalism
• 3:14:02 – Journalists/Adventurers Martin Admires
• 3:17:17 – Advice For Aspiring Journalists
• 3:19:07 – Country You Are Bullish On & Conversation Between Any Two People Of History

Episodes Of The Curious Worldview Podcast Mentioned.

• Tim Butcher – Blood River
• Dan McDougall – International Journalism
• Podcast Starter Pack – Offshore Finance
• Podcast Starter Pack – Explorers & Adventurers

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

The following is a conversation with Martin Schiber, who is one of Sweden's most incredible investigative journalists, the founder of Blank Spot, and the author of Too Many Extraordinary Stories to Mention. There are about three and a half hours of total recording here, and this podcast is broken down therefore into three distinct chapters. If I was smart with distribution, then I would bleed this out over three different episodes, but I am not, and hence the whole thing is being released here in one big podcast. So do be a savvy podcast listener and navigate with the timestamps. Not everything will blow your socks off, but I guarantee you that there is at least something here for everybody throughout this chat. So the three different uh chapters, as it were, are as follows. The first hour is a conversation about Cards of Qatar, which is the story Martin and his team have spent the last two years working on. It is a documentation of the immigrant deaths in Doha and construction of this slimy corrupt FIFA 22 World Cup. There is so much complexity to this issue, and this is something Martin is a world authority speaking on. So it is an absolutely amazing hour for Martin there. The second hour-ish is Martin reliving the time of his life when he was imprisoned in Ethiopia. This is a well-documented ordeal Martin endured and has been made into both a book and a movie, both by the name of 438 Days. In short, I think this might be my favorite part of the conversation. Then finally, the last hour-ish, 40 minutes or so, is a bit about Martin. A bit about where he grew up, who he is, what his life experiences have been, and then how to thrive as a freelance journalist. So please do share this far and wide. I hope leading up to the tournament and then our remembering of the tournament, the FIFA World Cup I'm speaking about, we remember it as a slimy event. Like we remember Beijing 2008 as a slimy event, or Rio 2018, or Rio, whenever the Rio Olympics was, as a slimy event. Because Doha is a stupid place to hold a sporting tournament. As you'll hear in the conversation, uh we open up on it more. But ultimately, just let's remember it as a filthy tournament because this tournament is head-to-toe slimy. Finally, this podcast took me over five hours, well over five hours to produce, but it will only take you five seconds to review. So please slide up your apps, whether that's Spotify, Apple, whatever, leave fat, juicy, energetic reviews, pump juice into the various algorithms, direct them towards a curious worldview, let them know that people are listening to a curious worldview, and I should also mention, please hang around to the end to hear my afterthoughts from the chat, and as well for me to explain my ambition for this podcast. And with absolutely no further ado, here is Martin Schiber. Tell me about Cards of Qatar.

SPEAKER_04 3:15

Cards of Qatar is a way of packaging very complex journalism in a new and innovative way to reach football fans and to give them information that could help them in this ongoing discussion now leading up to the World Cup in Qatar 2022. From the beginning it started with. And then I felt that I wanted to get away from this discussion on statistics, on numbers, because I knew these were people. And I had met many of them, you know, before, and I felt let's tell their stories. Let's find and talk to as many families as possible that lost someone in Qatar. So then I talked to journalist colleagues in Nepal, in Bangladesh, in India, and this was during the pandemic, so I couldn't travel myself. So they set out to talk to families. And it was much more difficult than I had thought. I thought, well, there are you know thousands of dead, it should be easy to find families. But I mean, embassies were scared, they didn't want to give out lists. Uh, families were scared, uh, the states were also scared because Qatar is such an important player. Uh, some of the journalists got nervous, and uh I mean it was really, really a tough every interview uh you know it was really boots on the ground, finding the families in the villages, explaining the idea to them, uh getting their stories. But eventually, uh after a couple of months, we found fine found a way to like find stories, and that was to see okay who has received compensation. Because in all these states, due to the huge discussion that's been over the years, uh, in both Nepal and Bangladesh and India, you you can get compensation from the state in different ways if you lost a family member in Qatar. So then we got hold of those lists and started calling people on those lists, and that made the work easier. Uh so then, I mean, I had all these stories. We had almost a hundred stories. Um, not all of them were dead. We also talked to a lot of people who returned uh and and could tell about their experience. And then the challenge was that okay, how do we, you know, how do we present this? How do we package this? Um, and my first idea was let's just publish one long article with 100 voices, and uh we do something like uh She has written a lot about Soviet, I mean Soviet Union and uh Think Boys, and she has a way of writing where she has like you know 100 voices and she compiles them into you know wonderful articles. I had that kind of idea, like just let's process all this material into one story. Um I will come up with a name today of all days. And uh then my colleague Britt Stuxton, who I founded Blanc Spot with, and she has a PR background, and her son has always collected football cards since you know the World Cup in 1990 and you know 1994 when Sweden took bronze in the States and onwards, you know, he has all these cards and he has a very special relation to his football cards. So she came up with the idea: shouldn't we present them as football cards? But instead of players, we will have migrant workers, and they are also stars in a way, and just make a short version of their life story and have their picture, and then uh these cards could be sent to FIFA to the sponsors, and that could create a discussion about I mean the real cost for this World Cup telling the stories about those who built Qatar. Uh, and of course, that was a great idea. I mean, I felt that from the beginning as an idea. Very original, yeah, very original, and uh it would I mean really have an impact and and m be something unique. Uh but then I thought to myself, like, okay, but how how will the families react? I mean, would they be fine with us? Uh you know, because these are dead people, you know, it it's it's it can't be reduced to you know a PR thing that these people are not with us anymore. As a mockery almost. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Uh so then when the restrictions were lifted in in Nepal was one of the first countries in South Asia where where you could travel after the pandemic, I immediately went back and I brought uh the cards with me and I visited three of the families uh and showed them uh the cards. And I mean these are also families they don't live in in Kathmandu, they don't live in the big cities, they live in in the countryside. For for many of the the families from from Nepal are from rural areas. They're not the poorest of the poorest, so to so to speak. They they but but still uh you have to to travel far to to get them and and really use your feet. Uh so I I for example, one of the families lived in the city of Gandrung, and it was Anish Gurung who went to Nepal in a very very in no he he he went to Qatar in a very young age. He was only 1920. Uh the city or the village where where he grew up they didn't have a road until two years, three years ago. So when the road came, his dream was to get his driver's license, and then uh you know to go to Qatar and work uh as a driver. His dream. His dream, yeah. When the road came, he could uh you know get his license.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

So it's almost an ambition to go to the Middle East to get this money.

SPEAKER_04 12:41

Yeah, I mean it's it's it's the way to get out of poverty. And uh I mean they have also you could also see that people who had worked in the Middle East they would the first year they would change the roof of the house, and the second year they would pay off their loans, and the third year they would move to the big cities. Uh you could really see that process happening in Nepal. Uh the extreme poverty has has dropped, I mean, significantly from like 40% to 16-70%. Uh so yeah, that that is many people's the dream is to go to go to Nepal really, and uh that was also Anish uh Anish Gurung's dream. He went there, uh he ended up in a car accident uh after just six months of on the job and uh came back in a coffin and the family went to uh to Kathmandu to receive the body. Um traditionally in in Nepal the the body needs to be cremated and there's a special ceremony where you put food in the mouth of the dead to uh to bring on into uh Yeah exactly. Uh but they couldn't really identify like where is the mouth. I mean the body was so damaged after the accident, and uh they still, you know, did the process and then he was he was cremated. So I met that family and uh they told me about Anish Gurung's dreams, and also at the time I was lucky because all his friends had this memorial tournament for his to his memory. He loved basketball, and it's also kind of uh uh a twist to it that is a basketball-loving young kid, you know, died leading up to the football world cup, but still, so there was this memorial tournament um taking place in the village at at the time, also, and all the young people were telling me about how they remembered Anish and the family. Of course, they missed the son, but they also missed the son's income. Um now they were his sister could could had had a job and could work, but still the situation for his father and mother was very, very tough, and they were kind of falling free uh now when they didn't have the income from the son. But his death had also created a discussion in the village. Like, shouldn't we stay here in Nepal? Shouldn't we you know get an education? Shouldn't we build take this village out of poverty? Maybe that is the solution and not just you know take ourselves out of poverty. And there were many others who had chosen to uh work at local hotels or his death had you know changed the discussion and kind of this glorified version of life in Qatar had been questioned. But that was also if you compare to Sweden 100 years ago. I mean, one million p one million Swedish people went to the United States, uh, forced out of poverty, and also from a dream of you know having a more religious freedom and and political liberty. Uh they all, you know, for some it went well, but for most ended up in you know slum uh conditions and sent letters home where they said, Well, it's you know pigeons falling down from the trees and yeah, it's it's uh you know rivers of gold and uh because that was the ex expectation in a way.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

But also that was entire sort of family migrations, and the and the dream was that you could maybe make more of yourself than um say simply driving a car or or um you know being involved in a big construction process. Yeah, yeah. Um can you map out for us it's not just Nepal, it's not just India, it's Bangladesh, a lot of African nations as well. Could you map out for us where all of this low-skilled service labour is coming from and to which countries it's going to?

SPEAKER_04 16:55

I mean if if you look at Qatar, it's the size of I mean Skorn in Sweden, which is you know one uh tenth maximum of the Swedish surface, and there you have a population about 300,000 people, I mean citizens. And then on top of that you have 2.7 million migrant workers or guest workers running the country. They do everything from building the roads to uh working at the hotels to uh handling luggage at the airport to guarding the airport, uh, and also in the domestic sector you have people working as as maids in the houses. And I mean traditionally uh the maids have been from the Philippines from Southeast Asia, and construction workers from uh Nepal and Bangladesh and and India. And I mean, as as you say, during the last 8-10 years, we've also seen um migrants coming from Kenya, um also many from Pakistan. I mean, I'd say you have the whole uh the whole world you know um working working in in Qatar. But it's the same in in uh in Kuwait, it's the same in Saudi Arabia, uh it's the same in many Gulf countries where they opened up for migrant workers. So our focus on Qatar can sometimes be a little bit uh tilted in a way. Uh because we are looking so much at the situation in in Qatar and talking to also migrant workers in in Nepal, they say that they prefer to work in Qatar compared to working in Saudi or or in Kuwait.

SPEAKER_01 18:51

In uh in one of your most recent publications, you told a story of a man who um was working on a rural Saudi Arabian farm or something, and he had shown up to uh the Nepalese embassy and he'd almost forgotten how to speak Nepalese and he hadn't been paid after 16 years of work. Yeah, this is uh this is slavery, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:15

Really, yeah. Yeah, so and compared to that, of course. I mean the reforms in Qatar is something that that the workers in the other nations just can can dream of. But basically, the in in Qatar and many of the other countries, you have a sponsorship program, or it was called the Kafala system in in Qatar, where in order to get get the job, you needed to have a sponsor in the country. So your permission to stay in the country was really you know connected to your job, and that was one of the problematic uh things that really made the workers vulnerable. Because if you complained about you know low salaries or no salary or something, you would lose your conditions, yeah, and you would just be sent back home or just stranded on the street. So that was not really it was impossible for any kind of you know trade union or even you know manifestation or or nothing, because that you were so tied to your to your employer.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

Uh so fragile to their whim. Yeah, exactly. And they almost they confiscate the passports too, right?

SPEAKER_04 20:30

Yes. Upon arrival they would take your passports and and uh especially for for I mean domestic workers, you have I mean really, really horrible stories of uh people actually I mean being basically locked up in in a house, not being allowed to to even go you know outside or and then uh escaping sometimes, jumping from balconies and and finding countrymen uh that would uh save you or so on. Um so so that was one of the key I mean factors that the situation for workers were a little bad. I mean, apart from the low wages or the long working days or etc. Uh but still the wages, I mean, compared to working in Nepal or to not working were were higher, and that was the reason that people sacrificed themselves.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

Can you put some numbers to that? For example, what they'd be paid relative in USD, say for the equivalent work in Nepal, as in Qatar. And that's forgetting the fact that the opportunity doesn't even exist in Nepal in the first place, but just to get a sense for that desperation. Because I'm s I'm very I'm shocked to hear that like a young man's ambition was to move to Qatar so he could send money back home. Yeah. Um maybe it's just my own ignorance, not understanding the desperations of that level of poverty. I I thought maybe the ambition might be to go to the big city, Captain Doo, you know, but So some numbers to what they're paid.

SPEAKER_04 22:04

I mean it's it's low. I think the I have to check it up now. The the actual like minimum wage and what it is. But in Swedish crowns, a normal salary would be about 2,500 Swedish crowns monthly.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

250 euros.

SPEAKER_04 22:25

Yeah, something like that. And lately the minimum wage has been raised to about 3,000, 4,000 Swedish crowns a month. So that's you know the considered well paid.

SPEAKER_01 22:39

In Nepal or in Qatar? In Qatar. In Qatar, yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

Because in Nepal it's drastically even lower.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

And so you mentioned um 2.7 million sort of subcontinent and maybe Northeast African workers, um all the labor, all the construction, all the domestic duties. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:00

Even at the gyms, you know, someone opening and closing the door to the gym. Yeah. You know, in countries where I mean work salaries are really cheap. They have these strange jobs. Yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:14

2.7 million in Qatar. And then you mentioned there's also Kuwait, Saudi Arabia. Um I'm presuming this also would leak into Egypt and this would leak into surrounding countries. Do you have any sense for the overall amount of these type of workers who now exist in this part of the world? Now I understand that those numbers are going to be vague at best. But have you thought about it or have you read that somewhere?

SPEAKER_04 23:40

I don't have that figure. I mean, I know that in terms of money being sent home, uh remittance by far surpasses the total amount of foreign aid. I mean, all the aid being paid by by states to other states. If you compare that with the money sent home by migrant workers, that sum is much much bigger. But no, I don't have the overall figure of uh of migrant workers. Uh it's it's it's growing. I I know from I know ILO reports. And uh I mean UN organisations have for the last 10-15 years focused on migrants' workers' rights more and more because they're so um vulnerable and uh they play such an important role for for the global economy.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

So I um first came across Caso Qatar at the beginning of the year or something. I'm not exactly sure how I found out. I think it was because my girlfriend told me about 430 dagger and so forth, and I was like, wow, what a guy, this is very cool. And saw blank spot and went from there. Um but it was coincidental timing because I had flown back to Australia for a wedding in my flight, Stockholm, Doha, Doha Sydney. So I flew in, I flew into and out of Doha twice. And having just absorbed this story that you were telling, I saw it in this really sort of slimy, slimy lens. Because it was so efficient in the airport, because there was say ten guys, you know, manning the queue for the uh for the for the security. Whereas in Alanda, there's no one there. And in Sydney there was no one there. Um but then as well flying in, you could see this desert, because it's just sand with these um sort of like palm tree-made islands with um you know Dubai-like tackiness of high rises. But then on the horizon, you see a bunch of stadiums.

SPEAKER_05 25:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

And I thought, what the fuck? You watch the highway going out to the stadium, zero supporting infrastructure around it. It's just a road in a p in a in a sea of sand to a very fancy stadium. There isn't even like housing around the stadium, cafes, restaurants, nothing. And you just look at it and just think, this is the most absurd waste. Not only are all these people dying in construction of this, but the environmental cost of building all of this stuff, which is never going to be used again. Could you to bring it back to the Kazakh Qatar and specifically 2022 FIFA World Cup, can you explain how they even got it in the first place? And we'll just leave it there.

SPEAKER_04 26:37

Yeah. I mean the short answer is they bought it. You know, they they bribed officials. And since then, I mean there are fifteen or sixteen, I think, of those who took that decision who have been, you know, prosecuted uh within the uh FIFA and and the football, the global football organizations. So it's it's it's clear now that they uh they bought the World Cup because as you say, it's it's surreal. This is a country without any football tradition, without any arenas, you know. Um and just the the fact that the World Cup this year will take place during the the winter, you know, and not during the summer is because it's too hot for the players. Uh but then who thought of the workers working in this uh really really hot conditions? Uh so no, it and Qatar the figures differ, but some say they they invested about 200 you know billion dollars uh to build these these eight arenas and these cities. 200 billion dollars, yeah. Uh and it's yeah, I mean it's it's beyond uh beyond surreal. Uh and I think that everyone now in hindsight says that you know it was a wrong decision to uh to award Qatar the World Cup, but now hey, we are here, they build all this stuff, all these people you know died. Uh let's do the best of the situation, let's just you know have the World Cup there. Uh but what I think needs to be done is to we need to have a discussion of I mean which countries shouldn't there be any criteria for arranging the World Cup uh in how you treat workers or living up to any human rights standards or or anything like that? And you've had trade unions and you know human rights organizations uh saying that for years now that arranging the World Cup could be a you know uh a positive thing that you get for doing something good and not just you know award the bad guys through some sport washing regime, yeah, the highest bidder. Uh, and some say that well, Qatar will be the first and the last, and that the discussion will change everything. Uh I think this is just the beginning. Uh I think that we will see the Olympic Games in Qatar, maybe as early as you know, 2036. Uh I think we will see more and more of these mega sports events taking place in Qatar or in Saudi Arabia or in uh in the Middle East.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

You can definitely bet your bottom dollar M. MBS has his hopes and dreams on Olympics and FIFA.

SPEAKER_04 29:27

Yeah, yeah. I mean it's as as long as uh in a way money talks uh that unfortunately will be the will be the situation. On the other hand, you know, football is nothing without the fans, and we can see now how football fans you know all over the world are really really upset about Qatar and really you know discussing Qatar. And uh I mean a year ago or something there was this idea for a super league in in uh in Europe where uh you know the teams would not play in their uh you know local national league but join a super league instead. But the reaction from the fans was just so strong that this whole idea was scrapped within a couple of weeks. And there is I mean that power, uh the fans still have that power, you know, to uh to determine whether this is the future for football or not. And uh especially the the national football organisations um have that power to to say that well, we are not playing in Qatar, we are not going to Qatar. And that discussion now is starting to uh to to gain momentum, but it's you know it's it's in a way it's too late. Uh I mean ten, eight, ten years ago you had the Swedish national team going for you know training camps in Qatar and no one was really questioning them. It was a bit strange that the players couldn't you know drink beer or those kind of angles, but and no one really you know questioned uh Qatar or the human rights record in in Qatar. But now everything is on the table, now everything is on the agenda. So let's see, let's see what yeah, let's see what happens. Uh on the other hand, I think I mean as as a journalist, now having all these you know stories with with workers that died. I mean, in Nepal I also met the equal amount of people who had stories of how happy they were uh providing for their families. And uh at the passport you know department in Kathmandu, the lines were really, really long, and people were dreaming of going to Qatar, trying to get their exit to get their work visas, and uh they borrowed money, they sold their parents land to borrow money, to pay a recruiter, to uh to get their job. And I remember also one of the interviews that really you know made an impression on me on my my my latest trip to Kathmandu was this old trade union leader. Uh he was before a Maoist, he fought in the in the insurgency to topple the king in Nepal. Uh, so he's really not I mean, he's really not a right wing kind of guy, so to speak. I mean, this is an old like guerrilla fighter who later on was the head of Gefonte, the trade union in Nepal. And he sounded the alarm back in 2012-13 and said that we are getting seven, eight Nepalese workers dead home in coffins every day. Uh, this is Qatar is a slaughterhouse, you know, and people are dying. And now I went up to him and his office, and he just looked at me and said that for me, Qatar is the greatest victory in my lifetime when it comes to trade union rights. And he said, like, we apot we abolished the kafala system. Nobody thought that would be possible. Everyone told us that they will never ever, the Qataris, uh, sign any agreement that takes away that power from the from the employer. Uh, but they did. And today, on paper, at least, the Kafala system is is gone, it's abolished. And what is that? The kafala system is the sponsorship system where uh where you are uh your right to stay in the country depends on the contract you have with your employer. Uh so it's yeah, the sponsorship system uh basically. And he saw that as I mean a huge victory. And uh he said that we could just dream about uh you know getting those kind of demands in in Saudi Arabia or in the region. And I think we also need that as a perspective, you know. All these debates and all what the you know, BWI, the Buildings, Workers, International Trade Union, all what they have done has really in a way had an effect. Qatar has changed many of its laws and made a couple of reforms. And I think from a journalistic point of view, it's crucial for us to also point this out. Otherwise, you know, Qatar would just feel that you know it doesn't matter what we do. We still have this one-sided debate where we are the bad guy and and we are just using the labors and so on. So I think we need to we need we need to also see that and and highlight that and and and make the issue also you know complex. And that also leads to a konklusion where you don't see these dead workers as um how do you say, as objects or just victims, you know? They they was they were the best of the best when it comes to, you know, mm putting tiles or you know, making the floors or building things tunnels and whatever. Uh and um as mm one of the families said that we know we should be proud of them, that proud of what they what they built. I mean look at what's been built in Qatar. It's been built by workers from South South Asia, so we should also you know feel feel that they are good at what they do and and and proud over them in a way. So, in a way I I I feel that maybe as as journalists we need to make things a bit less black and white and try to find also the nuances in telling this story. Um at the same time, of course, we should never, you know.

SPEAKER_01 36:15

Yeah, because uh that's the first I'm hearing of uh any uh angle that isn't just pure victimization. These people have been taken advantage of it's uh synonymous with slavery. In fact, you're saying that no, these are actually highly sought-after opportunities that they're that they're chasing. Um how do the stories of abuse filter back to those in Nepal, people you're interviewing and talking to, when you say to them, hey, this guy died of this, they're dying of young, healthy men are dying of heart failure, it's so hot and hard. Um how are they reacting to these sort of stories? Their families or no, the individuals who are keen to go over there.

SPEAKER_04 36:57

The guys standing in the line in the Cap and Do um, you know Yeah, yeah, that's a really good uh that that's a really good question. I mean they uh They don't see that in a way. I'd say that the whole debate is still glorified, you know? And the whole uh they they just see the they just see the opportunities and they just see the life that they would like to get. And many people also I met people who worked in Qatar for maybe eight years and you know they haven't saved a nickel, you know, they haven't saved anything. They just work and spend their money and then you know come back to Qatar and then they go again for a new trip and come back and spend their money. Uh this was also something that the authorities in Nepal and many of the researchers were focusing on that we need people to plan for uh for migration. You know, we need them to have a plan. Okay, you have this five-year plan or eight-year plan. In eight years you you want to buy this hotel or you want to buy this piece of land, then you need to save this amount every year. Uh and they are trying more and more to reach the people going with information about their laws and uh about about the current laws in Nepal and the rights and and so on. But um still for for many young people it was an adventure and a way to to get out and and and to get away. Uh of course it's a huge problem for many of these countries where you have the skilled workforce you know leaving the country. And and uh it's uh yeah, it's it's it's uh in the sh in in the short term they pay a high price, but also in the long term in it when it comes to you know developing the country, it's it's problematic if such a huge percent of the population is actually working abroad. Uh somewhere else.

SPEAKER_01 39:05

There's the you know the economic problem of the brain drain, famously, which all these countries already suffer from. Yeah. Because the best educated just go get a job in America or Europe. But that's actually an interesting point. I've never thought about it. What about the labor drain? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:18

Yeah, no, it's it's it's a challenge for the for the country, but now they choose to uh they choose to play this game uh and uh in a way uh also you know like one guy told me in a village that if I want to take a loan and I tell the bank I'm going to Qatar, everyone will lend you money. Right. But if he wants to loan to you know build a hotel or you know start some kind of local business, no way. Wow. Someone will not lend you money. And that also incentives are all wrong. Yeah, so that's also problematic. Um so no, they were not really uh afraid of going. And it's also interesting, one I mean young woman I talked to, she worked at a hotel. Uh she didn't receive her salary, and she just, you know, stayed on working and not working for about 16 months before she was able to go home. And then the Nepal community collected money for her ticket so she could go back to Nepal. Uh and then I mean she told me it was not good and uh the situation, but then on the other hand, she now she was looking to you know go away again to find another job in some other country. And then we became Facebook friends, and I looked at her Facebook posts, and they were all you know her standing in front of these famous buildings in Doa, in front of the hotel pool in the hotel bar, enjoying life, you know, with a drink. So though she had been there 16 months without the salary for all her friends following her in Katmandun, they would just see her romanticised version of life in Doha. And in a way that taught me something about also the shame and not returning as a golf woman or golf man in a suit, you know, taking your family out of poverty, but keeping the facade. Yeah, keeping the facade of being this successful uh overseas worker in a way which was really, you know.

SPEAKER_01 41:35

It's also fascinating as well. Yeah, like how status games are played locally. Yeah, yeah. You know, for her to show off a drink by the pool is the most unreal luxury of a rich person. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um for these young men and women standing in the line, keen to go to Qatar or Saudi Arabia, even though they know about these stories, is it a very sort of adventurous proposition that's being presented to them? Like go abroad and create the best version of yourself, or is it simply money's better there and you can send money home that way? So that's where you go.

SPEAKER_04 42:15

Money. Yeah, it's all and the push from the family, and sometimes push from a whole village. Uh I mean, one guy I met actually in the line to the passport department told me that like the whole village had had collected money so that he could get this job. Um, so there's a huge burden on their shoulders, and also I mean they are deeply in debt before before they go, because you still have these middle recruiters which are illegal. I mean, in Qatar it's illegal, and also in Nepal it's illegal to, you know, you would approach someone in a village and say that hey, pay me, you know, uh $4,000 and I will get you a job in Doha. And they would pay this guy $4,000 and then they would get a job. But this guy in the middle is just you know a broker of some kind taking advantage of uh of the labor. And sometimes there is a job, sometimes there isn't a job. Um and this is something that also Qatar always points to that okay, we are trying to get rid of this, uh, these scams and these you know, people not getting paid, and and uh uh we try to spread information that no one should have to pay for for the visa, uh etc. etc. Um but yeah, still there were many horrible stories of people being fooled uh and and paying a lot of money to to get the job.

SPEAKER_01 43:42

And then local organized crime just uh gathering people and promising them the world.

SPEAKER_04 43:47

Yeah. And then uh of course paying back back the loan would um you know will take you a year or something, and then you yeah, you're you're still there. So in a way I mean if you take a helicopter perspective, in many of the cases it's not a good, you know, time-wise and and money-wise. It's uh you know, you don't come back as a rich person, but while you're there and and as long as you could send back money home, your parents will have a better life and they will have food on the table. So that kind of responsibility for providing for for their families what pushes people to go and also you know pushes them um to stay. And now also with you know everything becoming digitalized, you know, they can send their salary in a second uh through their mobile phone to their parents' mobile phone, and that has also you know changed uh changed things so it's easier to send money.

SPEAKER_01 44:51

Isn't that such a wild thing to think about that you can come from such poverty that an entire village will will rally around one individual to go abroad to earn maybe two and a half thousand dollars a month and that'll make that'll at least make some people whole back in the village. Yet they still have a mobile phone to communicate with someone on the other side of the world. You know, like how does it affect you seeing this level of poverty and then you return here to Stockholm where you know CSN will make a whole village rich. One person C which CSN is university payments will make one entire village rich in another country. Like, how does it affect you when you think about it?

SPEAKER_04 45:32

I mean it gives you perspectives and uh I think that we don't really value the the situation we have in Sweden. I mean, living in one of the richest countries in the world and and having you know the right to uh express ourselves and you know print newspapers and and publish things about Qatar without being afraid of you know being sent to jail or or so on. Zero threats. Uh yeah. But on the other hand, I think that we should still complain about things in Sweden. You know, it's not uh the the standard, the bar shouldn't be Nepal, rural Nepal. You know, that's not that's not uh that's not the bar. And uh I I still think it's you know important to uh to also from you know a journalist's point of view point out all the things that are unfair in Sweden and and you know systems that that doesn't work or or or people being you know abused by by the authorities in in Sweden and so on. It's just as um important, even though we have that uh that experience. I mean it's that's always been a thing, you know, working as a foreign correspondent. You meet people that are in horrible conditions and that are poor or that are wounded or or jailed or uh and I think there there is a time where you feel that well I could give this woman a hundred dollars and that could change this person's life. But if I do that, I would also stop being a journalist, and then it's better for me to work as an to work with with aid or to join an NGO or to you know try and change the world or become a politician or something. Uh because I still see journalism as you know as a craft or as a we have a special role, and if we are so affected by the things we see that we feel that we have to do something more than than just write about it, then I think you need to take a break and maybe you know just stay home for a couple of months and and uh recalibrate uh and then you know hit hit the road again. Uh because it's also dangerous. I mean many people say now with cards of Qatar, like, okay, shouldn't you collect money to the families or shouldn't you uh and in a way I see that would be a nice thing to do, but on the other hand, you know, paying for interviews or or paying people for for talking to me, people would say the most you know horrible things to to to receive that money, or they will make up things. Yes. And uh incentives. Yeah, then and the incentives would just you know go wrong, but uh that would be you know really controversial. If someone else does that, that would be you know fine, you know, some NGO or amnesty or whatever picks that up. And there's this also demand now for FIFA to pay the families of the migrant workers. Um that that's being pushed. I mean that's uh that's one thing, but I think it's important as a journalist not to not to do that. I mean, I'm not a fundamentalist, of course. If someone is starving, you give him food or water, I of course. But I see there is a line where if you cross that line you you are no longer a journalist, but but an activist. Sometimes you have to cross that line to still be human, you know, to another human, of course. Um but but the solution is not I mean the job we do is to uh describe the world and then it's up to others to change it or to you know uh do things with that information and then we mix up the roles, we would also take away what is what is unique with with journalism. But but yes, sometimes you feel that uh you know maybe I should become an aid worker, but then usually I I take a break and s sleep and then wake up and and uh take a teaspoon of cement and you know just write the story.

SPEAKER_01 49:59

Um that it's funny that line between um activism and journalism. You you actually mentioned to me off air before we started recording as well, because these cards of Qatar, which by the way is going to be the top link in the podcast description, so people can see visually just how striking it is to see a card that you would associate with Ronaldo, yeah, his mugshot, his overall stats, every etc. But instead, a migrant workers' mugshot, how he died, how old he was. It's it's very striking, it's a touch morbid as well, but that's the that's the point of it. You know, it it it stays with you. Um you're going to be in Doha at the Fifth World Cup, handing these out, you know, trying to shame sponsors, um, trying to almost enforce is a wrong word, incentivize boycotts and so forth. Um that's getting into the activism that you're talking about.

SPEAKER_04 50:54

Yeah, and um and for me the cards is to you know, it's a hand grenade to get the attention and then to get people to read the articles and the long-form stories that are on, you know, the site. And in those stories you have all the complexity and all the different voices and um the different opinions and the nuances. But and I see the cards as you know, as a headline. You know, uh here's the headline: read the full story, you need more than uh than just an individual story, uh, than just uh the card. But no, you're right. It's I mean it's it's balancing on uh on a thread, but also I also feel that as a foreign reporter we need to try and reach a new audience. I mean I can't just complain, you know, no one is reading my 60,000 character stories. I have to try my best to package journalism and interviews and stuff in new ways to reach football fans, and now this is you know one way of reaching football fans with these uh stories. Um but but no, I totally agree. There is there is a risk of becoming an activist, and also the you know, if you would really go all the way that uh that line, that's you know where the wind is blowing now, so it will also be I mean a story that makes things more complicated, uh it doesn't become as viral as you know a hit piece on on Qatar or something like that. And that's that's a difficult thing. I mean I see really in our I mean and maybe I'm trying you know to eat the cake and to have it this with the cars thing, you know, not becoming an activist, trying to give let all you know sides have their best arguments. Um talking about this issue of migrant workers. We discussed this before Qatar, we will discuss it after Qatar. Qatar. It's not only you know, this wasn't a problem created by the World Cup per se that migrant workers are being abused ago. Ten years ago it was it's it's so I want to say all that, and that you can do in a 60,000 character uh story, but I think the discussion needs to start with with the individuals that that actually you know paid the highest price for this tournament to take place. They paid with their lives. So let's start there, and then for hopefully the discussion can then be more complex and more more nuanced.

SPEAKER_01 53:47

Can you lean into your Swedish brethren and perhaps have the Swedish football team, I don't know, you know, perform a stunt on behalf of you with the cards, for instance. Um because I know it's super high risk to any official involved with the cup to do this, but if ethically they feel so compelled, which it's very possible that someone might be, um, I mean that would be a hugely impactful way to generate attention to this, which is ultimately the story of the migrant workers and the conditions there.

SPEAKER_04 54:25

Yeah. I mean, we tried to reach out to a lot of football players. Many have really strict contracts where they're not allowed to basically say anything or do anything, uh, which is really interesting. I didn't know uh that they were so restricted in what they're allowed to do. Uh there's also this. I mean, I haven't, you know, David Beckham is uh I mean officially bought by Qatar to talk about the World Cup. Uh but then you have a lot of players who have also been paid by Qatar to stay silent. Uh they are on, you know, they're receiving you know payments. Much money, yeah, in a way.

SPEAKER_00 55:05

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_04 55:07

And uh so it's been difficult to find football players, especially active ones, that are prepared to speak out. Uh there are some unique cases, like Tim Sparv, the former captain of the Finnish football team. Uh he you know went to Qachar on a on a training uh camp and got asked a lot of hard questions from journalists. And I mean, he's an intellectual, you know, thinking, reading guy and was like, felt I don't have the answers to these questions. Migrant workers and human rights, and you know, was used to answer about you know the results only. So he started to um to contact migrant workers, talk to them, and and really, you know, did his homework. And then he wrote a letter to FIFA and to the football community a year ago, where he basically, you know, uh said that we need to talk about Qatar and we need to talk about the situation for for human rights in Qatar. I mean that was that was beyond brave, uh, and hopefully that can inspire more people to take a stand. Um but he was, I mean, I'd say he was unique. Uh there has been a couple of others that are not active but are retired professional players. Um but it's uh so maybe but there's also if you look to the states, you have a lot of I mean big sports athletes that are political in a way that will take a stand and will have opinions. Uh in Europe, that's still kind of a no-go and youth. You know, traditionally they don't do that. Though you had Ibrahimovich now uh sitting next to Berlusconi this morning on this. Yeah, but Zlatan loves Milan. So maybe there's more emotional than a political explanation to that. I don't know. Um but still it it's rare. Uh but yeah, hopefully more people will like Team Sparv um actually speak uh speak out uh because they have a huge you know following and and they could really do so much more than just win games uh these players if they want to use their voice.

SPEAKER_01 57:16

And and perhaps as well, just uh uh the taste left in everyone's mouth throughout the tournament and after would just be one of slime and almost guilt for having participated in watching this and enjoying it, because the common denominator across everything is buckets of money. And the numerator on each individual cause is ethical problem, ethical problem, ethical problem, corrupt ethics. But the money, for instance, David Beckham, when I saw that video of him promoting it, I couldn't put my head, I couldn't I couldn't put my head around it. He's already got more money than he ever needs in his entire life. Why on earth attach yourself to one of the slimiest things that's ever happened in your sport? Um but yeah, I guess shitloads of money wins at the end of the day. Same thing with Saudi Arabia in the live golf um tournament. I don't know if you've seen this, but I mean I I don't want to pass judgment on the players because I think if I was in their position, what would I do if I was offered a hundred million dollars to put to show up? Yeah, you know, but yeah, I guess the common denominator is shitloads of pinga. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:25

No, but then you know, also you have uh people tend to forget about you know the fans, because without them there would be no football industry, uh there would be no one, you know, watching the games. Or uh and I think that more and more fans feel the power that they uh I mean the power in numbers in a way, and they were able to stop the Super League. Um you know they will yeah, they also have the power to uh in a way to stop the World Cup in Qatar from from taking place if there really would be a uh you know a a worldwide boycott. That would be something. But then maybe you also tend to see the discussion from a European point of view. I mean uh in other countries and nations you don't have the reporting about Qatar as as we have in in Sweden. You know, in many you know, local debates it's the human rights situation in Qatar, it's it's not an issue. So uh that's you know once again a reminder of uh yeah, maybe the status of journalism in in the world in a way.

SPEAKER_01 59:47

Yeah, but also just uh local cultural differences, yeah. Um, which isn't to pass a judgment on different cultures, but just where uh in your hierarchy of things that that get to your attention, yeah, yeah. Um you know, where it is less uh egalitarian, yeah. Somewhere like Northern Europe, yeah, uh it's more just taken on in stride. Yeah, shit. There's a lot of corruption there. Next news, please. You know? Yeah. So I think you have about a hundred of these cards, a hundred stories. Yeah. Um you mentioned at the beginning that the Guardian reported as much as six and a half thousand dead. Do you have any really insightful uh figure for how many have died?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:37

I mean it it depends on how you how you count the numbers. Uh the Guardian figure was based on uh reports from from embassies, and if and you looked at okay, from this date in 2010 when Qatar was awarded the World Cup up until uh 2019 or what it was, and now we you know there's two more years to add to that. Uh and then you look at okay, how many people died in Qatar during this period of time, and they came up with the with the figure 6500. The Guardian didn't say that these people died building the arenas, but that became, you know, through whispers and through rewrites, that became kind of the truth that 6,500 people had died being building the World Cup arenas. And I mean that that would have been grotesque, you know. People will, you know, fall you know, hundreds a day, you know. It's just not possible if you think of it, you know. So these are people that died from you know car accidents to cancers to uh uh all sorts of you know uh suicides, a lot of suicides, a lot of mental illness. And and then the question is okay, can you, you know, can you blame the World Cup for these people dying? Would they have died if they were if they had stayed in Nepal or India or Bangladesh, or did Qatar contribute to their death? And this is the ongoing discussion between Qatar and many many journalists for the last you know five, six years. Uh, is this figure you know high or is it low? How many people would have died within a 2.7 million population during a 10-year time? Then maybe 6,000 is not a high number. Uh and it's like the COVID discussion, you know, how many died from COVID-19? Is Sweden a you know a positive or a you know a terrible example? It all depends on how you know how you look at the figures. So, and I felt that you know what we wanted to do was get away from that statistic fight and just look at the cases, talk to the families, and then what we could see quite early on is that there are so many cases where no one knows why they died. They die in their sleep, uh, and they often have complained about being sick, being forced to work while they're sick, uh, working uh long, long days, eight hours, ten hours, twelve hours, in in you know uh 38-40 degrees uh Celsius of temperature, uh not drinking enough water. Uh and I mean according to uh researchers and and academic, that is that could be a cause of death. You know, actually that I mean you work you work so hard, so the body it just it can't manage the heat, and then you die during your sleep. Uh there are no autopsies taking place. The bodies are you know quickly uh packed into coffins and then sent back to to their home countries, um or you know buried in uh buried in Qatar. Um so so one of the question marks is really: I mean, why did they die? If Qatar wanted to find out why these people died, I mean they have one of the most advanced healthcare uh departments in the world. Uh they could have done that, but they have chosen not not to do. There are no, I mean, there are no autopsies, there are not even in most cases any real you know examination into what happened at the workplace or or any kind of legal process taking taking place. Uh that is the pattern that you know that that we could see talking to the families. So, I mean in Karls or Qatar we try just you know to tell the stories and and to tell as many stories as possible, and then we could see some patterns. The journalist that I know who has been closest to actually answering the question, you know, how many died and how many are related to World Cup constructions. Um it's an English guy called Nick Harris. Uh he managed to get all the 15,000 names because according to Qatari official statistics, during these 10 years' time there are 15,000 deaths. So he looked at every case. It took him over a year, you know, in Excel and he went through every every ever every case. And he took away the cancer and he took away the accidents and he took away the road accidents and just kept you know the workplace. And his number was uh between 2,500 and 3,000 that are you know construction, uh roads, um, arenas, um hotels, uh services related to Qatar.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:32

Domestic and things like this?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:34

No, no, I think he took those away. Uh so I mean, yeah, you could you could go down that way, he did. Um he had Qatar's lawyers all over him and the newspaper, but he published a week ago in in mail on Sunday, I think, uh uh a story where it concludes that that figure. So um Surprised me, I mean looking at the statistics, is actually not uh those who who who died at the workplace because I knew I would found those cases. It's the amount of suicides. There are so many suicides uh both in Qatar but also once they come back home in in South Asia. They came back home without you know taking their family out of poverty, you know, getting back to your village, having just you know money to to pay for a new roof and then it's finished, and then you spent eight years away from your wife. Uh you you missed your kids growing up. They are grown-ups now. You when you left there were there were there were children. Uh and that is something that I mean that really shocked me, and that I'm I'm st I'm I'm actually now working on on seeing a pattern in this and the mental illness in this group, I think it's just huge. And also talking to some of the labor organizations, I asked about this, and and there was one guy from the Philippines and one from Bangladesh, and both said that no suicide is not in our culture. Uh, and that you know made me even more convinced that this is really, you know, this is really uh something that is not talking about even by the you know labour rights organizations, but it's just there as a hidden cost also of this World Cup. And thinking of it, I mean some people I I talked to, they spent 15 years in Qatar, and then you come back after 15 years. You know, everything has changed, your whole country has changed. Uh you missed so much, you know, you missed all those birthdays, all those you know, anniversaries. Critical identity problem. Exactly, exactly. So that um that that price is yeah, that that really surprised me and is something that I will try to look into more. And also all the suicides in uh you know in Qatar often just before going home or just before the contract's finished, or so people will b be found you know hanging in the shower or um found by their their co-workers at at their houses and so on.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:21

The cause of death issue is uh a strong theme in what you've been writing as well. So you you just spoke about the suicide aspect of it, but as well all of this sort of inexplicable heart failure among young, healthy men and women. Um are you suggesting that this is just a sort of slap on cause of death when they don't want to reveal what the cause of death is, say, you know, trauma to the head because he fell off something, for instance?

SPEAKER_04 1:08:54

I think it's a practical thing for the air companies. In order to take a dead body on an airplane, you need a paper and you need a uh a stamp on that paper that says why did this person die? Uh so it's it's it's a practicality in Nepal that they would just put natural cause of death, then put their body on an airplane and then just fly it back to South Asia. Problem solved. Um so I don't think that anyone considers this as a natural cause of death, uh young people dying. And also before they went to Qatar, they all go through a medical exam. Um most companies also before they do their first days at work, they go through a medical exam. So these are people that are considered healthy and who are just employed in their best years, and they then they they they die or they are they are found dead in their sleep. So, of course, this is beyond natural. This is not at all natural uh for for them to die. But it's it's it's it's just the bureaucracy that uh uh that forces the Qatar Airways and other you know air companies to they need this paper paperwork done to to put the body on the flight and then it's it's just the most practical thing to write. Because if you would write, you know uh something else that would imply that, oh, this needs to be checked up in a local court, or if you would write murder, that would also you know, call the alarm, or you know, cause of death, or cause of death, you know, um falling from a high-rise building, yeah, then you know there would be someone investigated who might be responsible for not taking all the safety precautions, and of course they want to to avoid that.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:41

It must have been, you did allude to it earlier, it must have been so much work to definitively get the life stories out of these people, to to to to contact them, yeah, the families, go to locate them, speak to them, have the translator get all the permissions for over a hundred different people. This is uh really an extraordinary effort. Um talk a little bit about how long you've been doing this story and and um you know your experience and how much effort it has been to do.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:12

Yeah, I mean we started in the autumn 2020. So yeah, that's about two years uh from now. So yeah, yeah. Two years. Maybe we started in the summer actually. Summer 2020. Uh so about two and a half years. Uh and we also had local journalists then in in India and uh two teams, two different teams in Bangladesh, and then in Nepal two two different journalists, and then myself also going to Nepal looking looking for cases. Um yeah, it took it took time. Uh but I also think that all we had the World Cup as our deadline, so we knew that this might take a year or so to uh to collect all these stories. Uh and after publishing them, we were also hoping to get more stories from from other journalists or from NGOs or from trade unions and so on. And it has started to happen that uh we published a couple of more that uh were you know other journalists had written about and sent us. So hopefully that will also continue. So it couldn't be like a crowdsourcing process where where we can tell more and more stories leading up to the World Cup. Uh but I'd say most after we found the lists from um the different government bodies handing out um um how do you say compensation. Uh, when we found those lists and could call people from those lists, everything was uh I mean that up up to that point we were, you know, more like looking in the dark, uh trying to find uh uh you know articles in local newspapers or you know uh calling uh calling case in board where we found the lists, you know, we had a method, then we could call the lists and then visit people on the lists. Uh so that was I mean the breakthrough process when we managed to get the lists, uh which made the process easier in in in the countries.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:32

Yeah. It's it's interesting just for me to sort of project onto um the work of the investigative journalism. Yeah. Because in two years um a couple of articles have been produced on this, but the amount of work that goes into developing that story and having it original and exclusive um is quite something. You know, and so this is for blankspot.st. Yeah. How do you finance it? How does that business work? How much do you sort of front-load the costs of this story, or do you get some sort of um funding beforehand, or is this old profits that are reinvested and then you may create some sort of money off the story later? I mean, how do the economics of it all work?

SPEAKER_04 1:14:17

I wish I wish I had an answer to that. Um, but I mean and basically of of course in the in the end when you have all the material, you're afraid that someone else has done exactly the same thing soon um publishing. But um we started off early, we went to there's this uh because of course you have to think. I mean, as a freelancer, I'm used to you know, you do the work, you found the stories, and then I know that good things will be published and you will be able to sell it. So I have, I mean, I've been working as a freelance journalist before starting Blank Spot for I don't know how many years since ever. And uh, you know, I never uh some people are good at you know pitching in advance, and you know, uh, but I've I worked in the opposite way, you know, just going to countries and then trying to find stories because you never know what you will find. And the problem with pitching a story is that you're kind of locked then in into that narrative. And if that's not the situation on the ground, maybe the story is totally different. You would still have to, you know, uh make some magic and find those cases that would fit that narrative in a way. So I've been always working the other way around, you know, just you know, having time and going around and finding stories, and then I know that I have the ability to write them in a way that they will be you know published in Swedish media. So so it was but now you know working with with blank spots it's a bit um different since we also try to find, of course, media partners when we have something big, but we also have our you know core readers and uh that will you know uh pay us monthly or annually some contribution for us to do our work. We don't have any paywall or anything, but uh some people on our mailing lists will you know donate money for us to for us to do the work, but that is quite a small sum. And so for this project, we we understood that it will cost a lot, especially we wanted to pay the local reporters. I mean, well, really well. Uh since we know we're doing a story about migrant workers, we you know also wanted to take advantage of some in the process. Exactly, exactly, and also uh to get them along and explain the the whole idea for them early on. Uh so then but we went to uh a football app called Forza Football, and the CEO of that app, I've seen him talking about the role of the football industry and that the football could be a force for good. So I approached him with this idea and said that we are we have started to collect stories, uh, we have this idea to present them as cards. Would this be something that you would be interested in in uh you know making happening? And uh and he was really interested. So we had and he also said that once these articles are published, we could send them to our to our users on this app. The app is basically an app where you get football scores in in uh live, so people will just report scores and uh send them live. So it's an unusual partner, but uh he had this uh how do you say uh uh no his heart was really in football as a force for good, and this was also a way for us to reach fans in a way. So he came along, and then uh we also asked uh, I mean one uh how do you say um like layout design um company uh could you do the design? And they agreed to do the design pro bono uh because they really liked the idea. Uh so then we had you know two wonderful partners uh that yeah that that made it possible. Um and then we were supposed to publish on February 24 together also with a Swedish media partner, but then we all know what happened on the 24th of February. Russia attacked uh you know Ukraine, so everything was postponed and and we lost the Swedish um media partner, but then eventually you know choose to just publish on on the site that we built Kartsov Qatar, uh so and and translate thing. And then we managed to find Eleven Freunde, which is a German uh football newspaper, and a paper in Czechoslovakia, and now there's a a French magazine and and uh a Norwegian magazine, and also there's this uh um community called Swedish Fans, which were really really super interested in the material. So we also have a partnership with them now where they could rewrite and republish um the stories. And uh yeah, now just this morning uh I got an email with the layout of the cards and that press Biron, uh the um yeah, where most people uh I mean they have shops over all of Stockholm, like 7-Eleven, uh you could say. Um they agreed to put the the cards next to the official Panini cards, uh, so they will be next to the Panini cards.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:44

And what's a panini card?

SPEAKER_04 1:19:45

Panini card is like the official Qatari with the real football players. Yes, perfect. So you would have the football players and then next to them uh we j I just got an email with a picture of like a box that was designed with with the cards in small packages. That will be then be. I think the idea is now to uh to give them away, like to hand them out, not to sell them.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:07

Sure, yeah. Uh with a QR code on it that takes it a blank spot.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:11

Exactly. That would that would be the idea. 100%. So that's amazing. So I mean, yeah, two and a half years ago I didn't even think we would have physical cards. Yes. Just see it as a digital way, and uh eventually the the story grows, and and um the only new thing for me as you know being a reporter is also handling, as you say, like okay, how do we finance this? But at the end of the day, we always made made sure we we found a way. Uh but it's not uh it's not easy, you just have to trust trust the material material you have and the idea and the stories, and and eventually it will somehow it will, you know, you know, work out.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:54

And um again, uh the people listening have to click on the link at the top and and just see what it is we're talking about because it is such an original way. You're not telling the story through the cards, but you're generating the attention and delivering the message through them. And from there, you can read the longer stories and understand the depth um behind everything that we've been speaking about so far in this. But I'm looking now, we're doing this for an hour and a half, and I plan on talking to you about one other giant story.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:23

So you know editing it sounds um, but easy part is talking.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:28

What about um to round this off, cards of Guitar FIFA World Cup Doha? What is your goal when you go there? Because you're gonna be there, I think it starts in November, right? Yeah, so you're gonna be there, you're going to be handing out the cards, you're going to be trying to put shame on the sponsors of the event and the officials, I suppose, running the event. So um talk us through what you're planning on doing.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:54

I mean I'm planning first to go to Surich, to FIFA. Uh they have received the cards, but they haven't responded. So I have to go there and knock the door uh myself and and uh get their comment on the stories in the cards. And then uh I plan to go to uh to Doha in Qatar and also to try and um and get interviews with officials and get their comment on you know what what could have been done to prevent these uh these deaths? Because these people will no longer be there when when the World Cup is uh you know when the judge starts the first first game, Ecuador against against Qatar. These people died, you know, but they died uh building things and and making this World Cup possible. Uh so I I think in a way, you know, shame is a strong world. I'm not I'm not accusing them for for the death of these people. Uh I'm not accusing them for murder, but I want them to learn the names of these people and the names of their children, and I want them to to remember these people, and I want to hear their thoughts of how to make sure that you know this this never happens again and and what are their thoughts on the future of these megasports events and and what what have they learned so that these people you know won't just disappear. And also for for fans to to learn the names, I think it's important because it's not just you know migrant workers or construction workers or thousands of dead. I think that they need to know that okay, who was Anish Gurung? You know, why did he leave uh Gandhrung, his village? What I mean was his dreams and his ambitions. I I think that's what I want to do with with the cards um and the stories. And then we will see if they you know, I still haven't received my my journalist visa for guitar if they if they uh if they let me in.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:04

Yeah, sure. Um one other thing actually before we round it out. You say that you g shame might be the wrong word, because of course we're not maybe shame is the right word. Well we're not accusing them of murder, no, but what we're accusing them of Of course they have a responsibility, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:19

Sponsors um I mean you have uh Coca-Cola, if you read their you know, uh ethical investment policies, there is a lot of you know fine words, but still they sponsor this event, and and you have all these unexplained causes of death and and people not returning to their families. You know, I want to hear their opinion on that. You have Budweiser, uh you have um uh of course Qatar Airways, and and those companies might be more difficult to get hold of. You have Adidas and so on. And I actually received a response from Adidas the other day where they say that well, it's not we have nothing to do with putting the World Cup in Qatar, you know, it's not our decision. Yeah, but it's still your decision to sponsor the promote it, and thereby making it possible. But it's interesting that they actually replied, and it's also interesting that four of the sponsors have now said that they think FIFA should pay uh compensation to a fund that could go to the migrant workers' families. Yeah, so that has happened just the last week. Uh, and I mean, in a way that it shows that the you know, in a the drop can can damage the stone, you know, it just needs to uh that's a something in the translation maybe sorry. But I think we understand you understand what I mean. You know, eventually all these articles, all these stories, all these testimonies, it's starting to take a toll also on the sponsors. It's starting to feel um that they are getting criticised now. And and uh it's interesting that they are now uh you know changed, not just saying, Whoa, we have nothing to do with this, but saying that, well, the migrant families should be compensated, which is huge, yeah, and which shows that it's important now to just keep on pushing and keep on asking questions for the last you know, weeks that are left now for the World Cup.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:23

And as I think about it, I remember in um for the Beijing Olympics, but then as well the Rio de Janeiro Olympics, uh one of the main topics of conversation that shroud both of those events was local conditions and the human rights violations of the countries, China more specifically in working conditions in in Brazil. Yeah. And I don't think people remember anything else from those events. No, no. And it definitely stained the Olympics. So perhaps after all of this just endless financial corruption, there is as well now, they're in bed with we're making the case for you know uh human rights violators. So um as we come closer to it, in a year that's had a war, crazy stuff in the financial markets, yeah. Maybe that drowns out a lot of the media. Yeah, but as it comes in, you know, maybe this is really gonna take off and um the Kazakhatar will be spoken of in every every corner of the world feasibly. I I think the FIFA World Cup is bigger than the Olympics. I think it is actually the most viewed tournament in the world, right? On the on the on the calendar.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:40

So Yeah, and if the legacy is the all the the migrant workers who who died on their jobs, of course, that uh it will change the equation for future host countries.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:52

Aaron Powell What about one word on the financial corruption piece? Um, what have you learnt about it that you know we as a just casual consumer

SPEAKER_04 1:28:02

Um I mean for me my many sports journalists are much better at looking at the financial corruption within FIFA. I don't think I ever spelled FIFA on my key in an article before this. I mean my angle getting into the World Cup was my experiences in South Asia and Southeast Asia and having written about migrant workers. So of course the corruption happened early on. I mean it happened years back. And the people who actually bribed officials for this World Cup to take place in Qatar, many of them have also been prosecuted from for mostly for other things than actually the Qatar decision, but still they were the same the same people. I'm a foreign reporter who comes from South Asia and who'd never written about sport before. Now I'm I'm into the field from uh from meeting from meeting the families. So uh when it comes to corruption and the trials, I I've seen them, I've I've noticed them.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:24

430 dagga 438 days. Precisely. Yes. Set the stage a bit. When did this happen? Where was it?

SPEAKER_04 1:29:34

Why are you there back in 2011? Um we have an a region in uh the Horn of Africa in the eastern parts of Ethiopia called Ogaden. I had met a lot of refugees from Ogaden. Um there were refugees who I met in refugee camps in uh also in Nairobi in Sweden. And the stories these refugees were telling me were really really horrible. There were stories of villages being burnt down. There were stories of uh systematic rape, there were stories of I mean gross human rights violations in this area. At the same time, this you know, summer of 2011, there's a lot written about a Swedish-linked oil company called Africa Oil. They have bought the right to look for oil in the same region from where the refugees are fleeing in the Ogaden region. But in the Swedish kind of business newspapers, this is just described as a huge opportunity to earn a lot of money. Like, buy these stocks, uh they will soon find oil. This is a unique opportunity. And that's where I'd say the story kind of started. On the one hand, we had these refugee stories, on the other hand, we had this Swedish-linked oil company talking about the possibilities of getting rich. And I mean that's sometimes the case as a journalist. You have this story on one hand, on the other hand, and in the end, time will tell. But then, I mean, I see it's one of the main roles for for a reporter is to find out you know, who's telling the truth, who's lying, whose version of the truth is correct in the Ogaden region. So, together with the photographer uh Juan Person, we decided to go there and to see for ourselves how is the situation here? What do the villages say about the Swedish-linked oil company? Um it turned out to be impossible since this area was sealed off from the world. No one was let in. Uh, you know, the Red Cross was kicked out, doctors without borders were kicked out, foreign diplomats were kicked out, uh, journalists who tried to enter were arrested and kicked out. So, in a in a way, this made us even more concerned. What's going on here? You know, what's happening in the Ogaden region? Uh, all these people fleeing, the Swedish oil company on their way in. And then there was also a conflict. If you look at the map, you could see that the east part of Ethiopia, it's a border to Somalia, drawn with you know a ruler on a on a table in Europe in the late 19th century. Uh so it's it's really not, it doesn't represent you know the historical or religious or you know cultural situation on the ground. And then you had a rebel movement, the ONLF, they were fighting for independence or for a referendum, actually, so that the inhabitants could vote. Like, should we be part of Ethiopia? Should we be part of Somalia? Should we be our own country? Uh, but basically they were fighting against the Ethiopian federal military. So we had two choices to get in. You know, either in a way trying to persuade the Ethiopian army to take us to these future oil fields, which we doubted were you know impossible. They just wouldn't let any journalist in. So they we then we approached the the rebels. Uh, they were terrorist-labelled in Ethiopia, but not in Europe. So they had an office in London. We flew there and uh talked to them about the possibilities entering illegally into Ethiopia. Uh, and we made a plan together with the rebels that we would fly to Somalia to a city called Calkayu, and we would uh hire a smuggler there that would take us across the border, and then inside Ethiopia we would meet up with a rebel group and they would be our guides and take us to the oil fields. So, yeah, that was the basic the plan. What a plan! Yeah, yeah. So, and uh I mean everything I I've been asked, you know, many times like, do you regret uh going in? And of course, you know, knowledge in in hindsight is not so impressive, but of course, with all I knew, you know what happened. I would get shot, I would get mocked executed, I would be sentenced to 11 years for supporting terrorism, I would sp spend more than 14 months in the notorious Khalit jail. If I knew everything, of course I wouldn't cross that border. Uh but there at that time we had these stories from the refugees, and we felt that you know no one else is doing this job. We have a Swedish-linked oil company, we have refugees, you know, pouring out of this region. Something is happening in here, and it's our responsibility as Swedish journalists to find out, you know, what's what's this company doing? What's their role in this civil war? And uh yeah, at that time we choose to to cross the border, and immediately things you know go wrong. Uh we cross at night time, and uh after a while I see these. We are supposed to be alone in the desert, uh, but I see these lights from a Land Rover or or some Jeep, you know, at the horizon. You know, and I look at the driver and I'm like, are these the guys meeting us? And he looks at me with like panic in his face and then just steps on it, you know. And then there is this crazy car hunt which goes on for two, three hours where we try to shake them off. And uh eventually, I mean when you drive in Sweden, there's this thing called snow smoke, like there's so much snow coming up from the the rear wheels so that you are blinded by your own light, like the following car. That happens with the sand as well after a while. So uh we manage to to drive away from the Ethiopian army that are chasing us, and uh suddenly the the driver you know just stops, uh opens the door, throws his Kalashnikov to the ground, and just you know runs out in you know towards the horizon. And uh you know, we are sitting in the back seat, and I uh you know take my recorder and and and the video camera, and like, okay, what's what's happening? You know, we are just left left here in the desert. And then eventually we hear voices, and uh there's this you know uh soldier, uh doesn't look like a soldier, looks like you know a young Bob Marley or Rastafari opening the door and like uh salam alaykum alaikum asalam, oh are you the journalist? Yes, and then those are the rebels, and they're like quick, quick, we need to run. So they burn the car, uh and then we just run, you know, from there. And then it's like three days and three nights of running trying to escape uh the Ethiopian army because they are onto our tracks, and uh you know, we walk in circles and we do all kinds of tricks like rabbits, you know, trying to get away from the fox. Uh and yeah, we run out of water and uh just you know keep going, keep going. In the beginning, we just walk, you know, during the night, but then we have to walk both during the day and during the night to get away. And yeah, sometimes we see the cars like searching for us, we could see the lights, and eventually we we reach the area where the rebels say that you know we are safe. And uh we start to do some interviews, we could talk to the commander, we start talking to villages and villagers, and uh uh get a sense that you know the conflict level in this area is is so much higher than what we anticipated. You know, the it's a war basically going on here. Uh and if you enter a war zone as a foreign oil company, there might be you know consequences when your security is based on an army that might commit you know crimes and that might lead to that the company will be asked questions about their role in this. So we feel that this is really a story to tell. Uh, and then you know the rebels really relax, they make a fire, they make bread, and we get water finally, and then suddenly I hear you know a gunshot going off, a Kalashnikov, and I just think to myself, you know, good God, let this be someone just flicking with this gun, you know, an accident. Uh and then you know, everything just explodes with Kalashnikov fire and machine gun fire, and we are attacked by about 300 Ethiopian soldiers, and the rebels, you know, they run like this, and they take our stuff with them, cameras and computers and things, which we have intentionally. Intentionally, yeah. We talked about it before. If this happens, they say if we are attacked, we are outnumbered. I mean, that's the rebel ABC uh playbook. So if they meet the army in the open, they know they're outnumbered, so they just run. And our chances to survive is not to run like the rebels, but to try and you know, just put our hands in the hair and surrender ourselves, which is rather difficult because it's a kind of bushy area. We are, you know, in a in a place where it's the visibility is very low. You could see maybe five, ten meters, and then there are other bushes which they were kind of hiding inside. There are you know, you heard gunshots firing many times, but I never heard this sound of bullets, you know, passing your head. It's like more of a ting tzing zing zing. It's a sound you don't want to hear because you really feel that I'm the wrong, I'm on the wrong, I'm on the wrong side of this. Uh so it's I mean it's a it's a chaotic situation uh where you hear these shouts and you have this gunpowder smoke and smell of gunpowder, and then quite quickly I'm shot in the shoulder. Uh, I see Yuan, the photographer, he's shot through the arm. So I could just see this big splash of blood, you know, all over the sand from his arm. And uh yes, I just put one finger in the hole where the bullet went in, and then another finger where the bullet went out, and try to raise the other hand above my head and just shout like media media, don't shoot. And uh then I see a soldier uh coming up to me, and he, you know, he doesn't shoot, but he turns his gun the other way then just you know knocks me with the back of his gun towards my head. Yeah, and then you know I fell down in the sand, and yeah, that's where the story about oil dies, you could say. It dies there in the sand. And uh in the beginning, of course, I mean there are thousands of things that go through your head, like, okay, how do I make these people understand that I'm a journalist and not a terrorist? You know, because you could see that they're really scared. Uh so I remember talking football with them, like asking, What's your favorite team? Uh, and like Sweden, uh, and I'm like, Oh, do you know uh do you know Ibrahimovic? Uh and I remember this soldier looking at me like Slatan, like, yes, yes, he's a brother from another mother, and the soldier's like, You big nose too. And then, you know, yeah, like bonding with him, and he's like, Sorry, I shot you, and I'm like, it's okay, it's okay. Shit happens, yeah. So they've got my life in that uh yeah, chaotic situation. Uh and then I mean we kind of expect that okay, this is a misunderstanding that will be sorted out, we would be kicked out, they will take us to the embassy, uh, it will be embarrassing for them for shooting two foreign journalists, but yeah, shit happens. But that's really not what's what's happening. Uh instead, they fly down their regional uh vice president and he decides to spend the the coming three, four days making a mockumentary, like with a film team, where he I mean basically fabricates evidence that will be used in a court to sentence us for supporting terrorism. So he wants us to say certain things in front of the camera, and when we don't agree, he threatens to deny us antibiotics for our wounds, and he also arranges a mock execution to make us cooperate. And uh yeah, so also takes like civilians we never seen before and say, These are your rebel friends, uh these are the terrorists you are supporting, and totally surreal days in the desert. And then when they are finished with that, they eventually take us to to Addis Abeba, the capital of uh of Ethiopia. Uh so and the rest, I mean it's uh it's not a story about oil, but a story about you know trying to survive in that prison, about press freedom, about uh meeting local journalists in in that same situation, um basically trying to survive for yeah, the 400 and uh days that are uh that are left. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:38

Is it sort of uh traumatic for you to to think about those times? I can hear it like a slight quiver in the voice when you talk about the mock execution and and being shot and so forth. Um it's been now 11 years, yeah. So h how how does it sit with you now?

SPEAKER_04 1:44:01

I mean it's it's interesting how it it goes from being an experience to being like notes in a diary hidden in the prison to a published book. Uh and now you know a story with like a beginning, a middle, and an end, and and a bit of humour, and it's you know so it's in a way it's been it's it's been very processed, you know, and I'm lucky to have done many interviews I mean in Swedish about it. Uh so that's been a way of handling it, you know, talking about it, which I think is important. But as you say, the difficult part was really the mock execution part, and that's the part I don't really you know go into detail. I guess I could, but I choose not to, uh because that was kind of more traumatic, you know, being in jail as a jail journalist, of course. Yeah, it's tough, and yeah, you know, there's no justice and so on, but but you're not afraid that you will die. And during the some days in the desert, I actually thought that you know this is my last these are my last minutes on this earth. So of course there's a difference between those traumatic experiences and kind of yeah, just the pain and uh shitty experience of being jailed. So yeah, there is there is a difference, but no, it's not it's not traumatic to talk about. I'm also I mean extremely privileged. Had I been Somali or Ethiopian, I would have been shot in the desert. I would still be there. So that's uh but I lived and that comes with a responsibility also to to witness and to I've survived meeting this army in the desert. Many people weren't that lucky and couldn't tell the story, so that's why it's also been important to to tell that uh yeah, to tell that story in a way.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:59

And when you catch up with Johan Person, how much of this sort of brotherly comradeship do you have for having gone through such an amazingly unique but bonding experience?

SPEAKER_04 1:46:18

I mean before this assignment, we didn't know each other. We shared the same freelance office in the Hagestiani in Stockholm. Uh, and I think that was a good thing, because we got to know each other under these kind of extreme circumstances, you know, taking these life and death decisions together. Should we do this, should we do that? Um and you know, I'm really proud of how we handled prison, how we handled everything during these 14 months. Uh once we were free, you know, this pressure kind of disappeared. And I mean, the first month you one slept at my couch, and we we went to back to the Horn of Africa actually, we went to Eritrea together and did stories. Uh but it's been like you know, what we have together is a trauma. So we we like to hang out, but we also get really you know depressed uh being with each other. And after a while we felt that no, you know, let's just you know divorce. We have Ethiopia as a common child or something that experience, but um we I mean I see him maybe you know once every second year or something at some journalist thing. But we are not you would think that you are this, I mean, like super tight forever, and of course we are. If I would you know go to prison again, I would immediately, you know, call to you could join me in the cell. I wouldn't want to be in prison with anyone else. It was the best, really. Uh but uh it's more the relationship in freedom, I'd say, is more it was easier to to have a relationship in prison than it is in in in freedom, um in a way. But so we do our things at uh we don't do them together in a way.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:22

And what about Lunden Petroleum and Mr. Karl Bilt, who I noticed still has a very big profile and was featured at the elections recently on SVTia.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:34

So what's one of yeah, he's one of the names as maybe our future foreign minister again. He's one of the names being discussed now after our elections. I mean, for me it's a mystery that he put himself on that board. I mean, having his experience and his background, there are so many organizations, so many jobs he could have taken, and he chose to get in this, you know, uh small, very, very uh maybe small is the wrong world, but special oil company. I mean, this is an oil company that's they were kicked out of apartheid South Africa. Uh they were kicked out of Congo. Uh they did business with uh Assad in Syria. You know, they're one of the founders, Adolf Lundin. Uh Adolf, by the way, was his name. Uh he had this motto, like, no guts, no glory. Yeah. So they go into, and they're a bit, you know, like freelancers in a way. You know, they go into conflict zones where no other like normal oil company would go, and they try to find oil and gas and then build up some kind of um business and then sell it off. So it's really a high-risk, high-reward business that they have been doing for for many, many years. Um, and they were also active in uh in Sudan uh during the war in Sudan. They were especially active in a block called 5A, where 160,000 people were forced to leave, and thousands were 20 or 30,000 people were killed. I've never even heard of that. No, and eventually they left Sudan. But there were so many reports of what happened in this Block 5A during their time in Sudan. So now there's actually a unique criminal case in the first court in Stockholm where they are asked questions for for I mean violating humanitarian law. That they made it possible for the army to commit crimes by assisting the army and by being there at the at this time. And of course, they defend themselves with you know everything they have, trying to say that no, this is not within the jurisdiction of this court, and this is not. So it'll be very interesting what will happen with this with that with that trial. So this was the company that Colbilt got on the board on. He published a book. Next week it will be out, his biography.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:31

It's called My Wars. Do you expect a feature in that?

SPEAKER_04 1:51:34

No, he doesn't mention Sudan at all. Okay. Which is bizarre. He doesn't mention Iraq, which was also a war he promoted, which is bizarre. Perhaps he would rather people forget about that. But it's yeah, it's it's uh Marcella. No, he and um yeah, so he was on he was on the board, and that of course made this whole issue uh huge in Sweden because he was a foreign minister during the time we were jailed investigating an oil company which he had been on the board of. At that time he was no longer a member of the board when we were jailed. But he was accused of you know having these two different roles. And I think that in a way that worked to our favor because it made him work day and night to try and get us out, because it was a huge problem for him more than Melisanavi, the Ethiopian Prime Minister, that that we were there. Uh so yeah, it's uh but the whole idea was also you know not to be too late, as in the Sudan case, but rather, you know, more like a proactive journalism. Okay, it's 5 to 12, these things might happen here if this oil company goes in and uh you know, not just you know be there after the earthquake, so to speak, but before, and hey, this could happen. That was the idea with going in, also doing this story so early on, because they hadn't started to, you know, they started, you know, drilling and looking for oil, but there was no active you know oil exploration going on.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:14

It's such an interesting feature of Sweden, you know, this country which I love so much, that you can be so egalitarian, somehow very socialist, somehow very individualistic, but then also somehow just produce these caricatures of extractive capitalism, you know, with this London Petroleum being such a such a poster child, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:39

It's such a popular stock, also. I mean it's if you look at like the big owners are not big companies, but you know, ordinary Swedes which feel that it's you know uh yeah, it's it's really popular among small savers, or how to say, uh this uh this company also to invest in. It's an oil company. Yeah, and today they are um I mean they are really played it safe, so they sold off almost everything and just have um exploration outside the co-coast of Norway uh these days.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:10

So they're really kind of yeah, they are not perhaps like Volkswagen or Hugo Boss or something, they can turn into a great renewable energy company with very shady origins.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:23

Probably.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:23

Yeah, yeah. That's uh what what is their reputation now? It's just sort of, you know, uh what do you call it? White bred, normal.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:33

Uh I mean I say this ongoing trial, it doesn't get the attention I think it deserves uh because it's so unique. And uh they've also been good at you know uh buying art, you know, sponsoring art centers both in Norway and in Sweden, a bit like artwashing, you know, trying to get a better name for themselves and their company. And of course they would say that you know, to journalists they say that, but but we created peace in Sudan, you know, oil exploration it it contributes to peace and economic growth. And I mean that's fine, you could say that to a journalist doing uh an article, but I mean try that in a court to a prosecutor. I mean they will point to this evidence is happening in 5A and they will, well, we created peace, but apparently no, this happened. Please answer my question. So that's really interesting to see what questions the the legal system could get from from this company that that journalists hasn't been been able to um to get.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:42

So you've gone through this um horrific time in the desert. Yeah. Uh gone through a Kafka-esque trial. Yeah. I think you described it as. Yeah. Um a show trial. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:55:56

Just Yeah, where they were showing these videos after we were captured. Uh and then there's also one stupid thing that we did before we went from Somalia over the desert. We spent, you know, um more than a week waiting uh at a hotel in Somalia, and uh that we we got to know the the guards of the hotel, and one day you know we were playing football with them, and uh they were like borrowing Yuan's tobacco, and he was borrowing their Kalashnikov, and then I had a GoPro camera with me, so there are some seconds of footage where Yuan holds this Kalashnikov, and that footage was found on us when we were arrested. And of course, that was gold for the propaganda, Ethiopian propaganda apparatus. So that footage was shown during the trial, and then we were you know accused of terrorist training, taking drugs and then doing terrorist trainings, and the drugs were the snooze. Yeah. Of course, it was I mean immensely stupid to to hold a gun. You should never do that as a reporter in any conflict area.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:06

But really, yeah, but just we all because of the lesson you had to learn the hard way.

SPEAKER_04 1:57:10

Yes, yes. I mean, and I know all colleagues have those kind of pictures from yeah, so so but it's yeah, it's really a lesson to learn. How can these pictures be used against you? And they were really used. But they also added like gun sounds to the film. And then when we objected and said, Hey, we didn't fire, you know, the fingers, not even on the uh you can't you don't fire a gun that way, and the uh prosecutor would say, Well, we added some gun sound just to make it clear what your intentions was. So, yeah, as you say, totally Kafka-esque, and then we were sentenced to. I mean, basically, for moral support of terrorism, and the Ethiopian they have a terror law that says that if you have any kind of relationship with a group that's terrorist labeled, then you are the messenger of this terrorist group with the messenger boy. So it's it's a law that criminalizes journalism because how can I do my job if I'm only allowed to talk to the government and not to the opposition groups, even though they are armed. I mean, it's the job to talk to both sides. So basically, what what was on trial was not me and Yuan, but journalism was on trial. And we also had, I mean, colleagues from the states, from the UK, flying in, testifying and explaining to the court how does the journalist work, you know, journalists who crossed borders in Libya or Syria and like this. This is how we roll, you know. Yeah, sometimes we break laws, but we do it to do our job, to bring home a story and to tell our viewers and listeners and readers what's going on in these areas that are closed off to the world. This is not terrorism. This is, you know, uh original reporting, using your feet more than Google, going to the places. Uh but you know the judge just shook his head and then sentenced us to eleven years for for terrorism.

SPEAKER_01 1:59:02

Of which you spent yeah, 14 months. So in a way. So explain the conditions, the the everyday life of this place.

SPEAKER_04 1:59:13

I mean the worst part was actually before we were sentenced when we were kept at the police station Makalavi in in Ethiopia. Uh then we were kept separated in isolation, and the cell was about two times three meters, a wooden floor, uh concrete walls, uh, and then a wooden floor above the cell. And I mean what I remember thinking back is uh really how difficult it was to be, you know, just on your own, just with your own thoughts, and trying to, you know, navigate and trying to like, okay, what does this sound mean? What's happening now? And uh because that was really a uh I mean, I think isolation is such a horrible thing to be in, because you always have someone to talk to, or you have your cell phone and you are not really used to be you know on your own. And then hearing the sounds, and in the beginning, when I heard the sounds of you know, steps or you know, body against body, or this kind of sounds, I thought that well, they are exercising, you know, they are jumping, or they are training the police. And then eventually I understood that no, this is there's a pattern in the sounds. In the beginning, they scream and shout, and then at towards the end, it's always like silent, and this kind of just dragging sound. And then I understood that, well, this is this is a sound of torture. These are, you know, fellow prisoners being tortured to confess different made-up crimes. And you know, hearing that and understanding that these people are screaming because they're tortured, you know, it really you're not strong in that moment. You're you know, you felt that it's my turn next. Is it your one that they are torturing? Uh and uh yeah, really, you know, your body just wanted to lie down and and and cry basically, and you try to find something within you that strategy or something. And I remember that you know, everything that you knew by heart was so important. Like, I mean, this knowledge by heart uh thing, every like poem or song or that you could just you know entertain yourself with was really like a tool not to become crazy in that in that cell. Uh it was so important, and then also it was cold, you know, it's rainy, and Aldis Ababa is 1500 meters above sea level, so it's it's I mean it was freezing cold night time, and then to stay warm I started to run, and then I got dizzy in running round clockwise, and then anti-clockwise it was still dizzy, and then it's like people have been in cells for thousands of years, there must be strategies. And I remember that there is this book by by Arthur Kestler called Night at Noon, I think it's the English title, and his character, uh Rubashov, he runs in uh figure eights in the cell, and that really works, you know. You could run you know for kilometers without becoming dizzy. And that you know, feeling just running in figure eights, you know, uh reading poems to yourself, you felt that by yeah, these small victories you you adapted to the to that situation being locked up, and uh eventually also you know, dividing freedom was you never thought about freedom, it was just a non-issue. It was like, okay, how do I get a soap? You know, how do I get a toothbrush? Uh, you had these goals. Okay, these coming 14 days, my goal is to get a toothbrush, and then you know you worked your way trying to get the toothbrush. So I mean your life became very small, but it was also a way of adapting. I mean, the main strategy or the main in the beginning, we still thought that, well, hey, they will let us out. You know, that was what the Swedish ambassador said. That you know, just stay cool in the pool. Don't make this into a some big international media thing. Uh, stay low. Uh, they will kick you out. But then I remember seeing one other prisoner who was in another cell at the women's department. And when she passed my cell every day when she went to the toilet, uh, there was something with her that kind of you know stuck out. She always her hair was clean and she walked very straight and looked so confident. So I I always wondered, like, who is she? Why is she here? And then when she passed my cell, she uh she you know flickered with her eye, and then when it was my turn to go to the toilet, I found this small matchbox. And in the matchbox she had written a letter on toilet paper, and it in the on the top of the letter it said that if you find this letter, please destroy it, because no one no one can can read it. And then she wrote that uh her name was Riotta Lemo. And she wrote that she was a journalist also, and she had written many articles about the government that were critical, and that was the reason she was here. And uh she wished us luck, and she wrote, like, I hope your gun wounds will heal. And if you are released before me, please tell the world that I'm not a terrorist but a journalist working for the truth. And that was signed by Riotta Lemo. And I, you know, remember, you know, the feeling tearing apart that and you know, getting rid of that evidence and that letter, that we were really, you know, this was something much bigger than just two Swedish journalists chasing a Swedish oil company. We had ended up in a crackdown against free speech in in Ethiopia. And Ryot, she became like our teacher, and the and the bathroom became like our university. You know, every day she had new letters and new messages for us. Uh she explained why she became a journalist, and she said that you know she was a preschool teacher, but the situation in the country was so dire, so she chose to start writing, and she loved journalism, she loved the truth, she loved her country, and that decision kind of brought her to the cell. And you know, in a way that she was proud of being a journalist, and eventually that that gave you kind of some kind of strength. You felt that okay, fine, you know, jail us, you know, chain us, humiliate us, do whatever you want, but you can't take away what's the most important thing for me here. It's to be I'm a journalist, I'm a reporter, this is my job. Uh so she gave me that kind of strategy to find a meaning in the suffering and get up in the morning and take this teaspoon of cement and then you know start thinking, okay, try and remember how does this look? You know, if you were the interrogator got very angry, you were like, Oh, this might be a good scene in the book. And if he threatened you with death sentence, you were like, I need to remember his exact phrasing here. And what does he look like? How does his table look like? Does he have pictures of his family? And you know, starting remembering names and dates, and it became like your mission to tell one day I will be free and I will tell this story. And you know, Riot really gave me that key to surviving in prison as a journalist by putting on this journalist armor in a way. So that that helped, and then eventually we were moved to Kaliti, which is you know, 8,000 people in eight different zones. We were in zone six in Hulitinya Bet, which is room two, so we were 800 in our zone and about two, three hundred in our room, uh, you know, people everywhere. Uh the floor was you know so covered with people at night times. You couldn't see the floor, you just saw bodies, bodies everywhere. And uh but also you know, coming. My only experience from prison was from the movies. You know, you've seen prison movies, and it's always violent and threatening. And I thought when we were brought into Kalita that we will have to fight for our lives, you know, you need to hit the big guy hard early on, and so on. But what met us, you know, in the prison was something totally different. Uh I mean there were such warm, hospital people that really welcomed us into this community, gave us a madras, you know, water, food, people shared what they had, and also there isn't within the Ethiopian culture this huge tradition of taking care of guests. So they were like, You're guests in our country, we're sorry we can't provide for more for you now. And at that time we were also portrayed as terrorists on the state TV, which was on, you know, 24-7 in the prison. So they also took a risk, the other prisoners, you know, really welcoming us into this community, this family. And the first word I learned in Amarinia was nubla, which is like come and eat. And I mean, I don't wish anyone to spend a day in that prison, but I wouldn't want to be without that experience, you know. It's not survival of the fittest. No, in that situation, it's you know forming small families, collaborating, that's the key to success, to survival, by working together with other people and experiencing that was I mean kind of unique and also gave you perspectives. I mean, as yeah, as you say, as a journalist, you are privileged and you do these interviews and then you go to the journalist hotel and you take a beer and you sleep in this nice soft bed and then you fly home, and now suddenly you were doing this interview with this guy, but then you slept next to him, you know, on a concrete floor for for more than 400 days. And that though we were tourists in a way in that situation, and we were not in any way as in the situation as our fellow prisoners. We had an embassy, you know, we have you know diplomats, families working for our release and so on. Still, it gave you a perspective on suffering and being not only a bystander watching and writing but also participant in a way, and and uh also experiences that I think makes me today a better journalist to have seen you know the world from that perspective. But of course, I mean looking back, it's like also it becomes a story, and you remember the laughs and the good people, and I mean it's also a situation where people died through simple curable diseases, ammonia, tuberculosis. About once a month someone died and was carried out with his feet first. Uh and also people who spoke politics were taken away, disappeared. People who objected, you know, to the prison authorities were taken away. And uh eventually that also I mean got to you. You could wake up in the middle of the night thinking, did I say something bad about the government in my dream? Or you know, you started to censor yourself talking to you one, just talking about you know, food or the weather, not about human rights, or the story or something. Yeah, yeah. Maybe maybe that's explanation more than the censorship. But I mean you get scared, and and that's I mean, I worked in a lot of authoritarian states and and uh dictatorships, and I thought, well, it's a tough time not being able to vote, or you have to vote for this and that party, but you know, being there, you really felt what what does it do with all human relations when people don't have the freedom of speech, when people are afraid of of of you know talking? It really affects everything and uh it makes you stupid, you know, you become like a vegetable or something. It it really uh so that was the difficult part. Uh I'd say, you know, when once a month you know turned to over a year to be like how do I you know not become a vegetable in this environment, which was all about you know uh making you convinced that you had done something wrong and that you Yeah, you deserve to to be there.

SPEAKER_01 2:12:04

When we were speaking earlier about the Nepalese communities and the poverty, and maybe later we'll get to speak about some of the other experiences, and now you're in the prison. How has it all affected your ability to to empathize? Do you find yourself significantly more empathetic having gone through these experiences?

SPEAKER_04 2:12:32

Yeah, I think I cry more after the prison, yes. I think I'm more affected when people tell me what what they've been through. It it it hits me harder, yes. Uh but it might not only be the prison, it might also be that I mean now I'm I'm a father myself, I have two kids, two girls. Uh also I'm yeah, that also kind of makes you more uh you cry more. It softened me up a bit than before, I think. So I can not only blame the um the the prism for that. Uh just but of course it changes you, yeah, it does. But maybe not to you know to the worse. And I think all kind of traumatic experiences changes people in a way, you know, you learn things, and what I noticed, I mean, working in the field again is that I'm not uh I'm afraid of these legal you know challenges, or I'm afraid of that someone will knock on my shoulder and say that, well, this story is forbidden to report on, or this group is terrorist labeled, you shouldn't meet them. I didn't you know care about that at all before. I mean, I talk to who I want to talk to. I'm I'm a journalist, it's my job. You know, I talk to terrorists and I talk to governors and I talk to politicians. It's not but now I'm I'm really hesitant in like especially terrorist-labeled groups and how I approach them. I mean, I don't send them an email like, hey, I'm coming to your country. Uh and I see that kind of that criminalization of journalism by terrorism laws or different national security laws as one of the great dangers ahead for reporters to work. And you could also see that it works, you know, by jailing journalists, they silence the message, and it doesn't cost anything to keep journalists at jail. And I mean, if you look at two Swedish journalists in Ethiopia, but you also have, I mean, I'm thinking the Al-Jacira team that were jailed in Cairo for uh with Peter Grest and the others. Uh, you have so many cases also where international reporters are jailed, and it doesn't have any consequences, you know, financially, diplomatically, or legally. States have learned that you know, violence against journalists work, you know, it it's it's a cheap form of censorship. And that is uh yeah, that is scary. Uh on the other hand, I mean, in taking risks, I feel that I don't have the the same kind of checks and balances anymore. I mean, I don't I don't cross borders, but still my perspective in you know what can be done and can't be done has been kind of the goalposts has been moved. Sure. I mean, I I broke into brothels and to find evidence, and I uh, you know, when I was in Togo a while ago, there was this Swedish Togolis um democracy activist who was jailed and in prison. And uh I'd been in the country for you know over a week, and it was my last days in in Loma. And I thought to myself, shouldn't I try and get into the prison and get an interview with him? I have because I covered everything else. So then I just you know put on my jacket and and uh pretend using my the best French I have that I'm his lawyer and managed actually to get you know through the first gate and the second gate and actually into his cell. And he's very shocked to see a Swedish lawyer he didn't know of. Uh but then he shows me that he's tortured, he has clear evidence of torture on his hands and his um health status is very, very bad, he's very, very sick. And then I get out of that jail and then quickly to the airport and you know fly home and file the story. And uh eventually also the attention around his medical situation creates an opportunity where he's released. So, in a way it's also it has it hasn't made me more you know careful in a way, but maybe more innovative in in uh also the need for journalists to push boundaries and uh to you know to go as far as as far as possible to get the story or to get, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:17:16

The type of risk that you took um colluding with the terrorist organization illegally entering a country that um had a shocking um precedence against the type of crimes you could be accused of. Uh it's just an extraordinary thing to do, you know, in terms of the risk. Um, you know, I'm sure you always ask this, you know, how do you think about risk? What do you think about risk? So I'm trying to avoid asking you that bland of a question. But I just think of myself, if I was in your shoes, would I have the balls to do that? And do you think about it uh in those lines, like, wow, this was a gutsy thing to do, or instead, maybe did you just underestimate the risk, for example?

SPEAKER_04 2:18:07

I think that I will be totally honest, the really courageous thing to do would have been, after 14 days in Galkayo, after seeing, you know, a strange Jeep with a lot of antennas, after all the delays, the brave thing to do would be to just, you know, call off the story and go back home. But that decision is so much more difficult to take than to actually cross the border with a smuggler. Really?

SPEAKER_01 2:18:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:18:35

Because your ego is attached to it in I wouldn't say the ego, it's you know, we are close we are so close to investigating these important testimonies by the refugees. We are so close. They are just there, you know, on the other side of the border. The villages are there, the human rights violations are there. We are so close. No one else is here. We need to do this. If we you know go back now, we will probably never return. And also, you know, we were there on a freelance basis, we invested, you know, also, you know, so much money in this story, all the costs, you know, satellite telephones, uh everything. Uh so that's why also, I mean, now on blank spot being an editor, when I have reporters out, I don't let them take these decisions themselves there because you are just too close to the story. They should be taken in an air-conditioned office uh with someone who has slept and had a proper breakfast. And uh yeah, um looking back, I'd say that that had been the brave decision to call things off. But it's extremely difficult to do that. And it's something I try to tell also when I'm I'm teaching at the School of Journalism in Stockholm to tell the students that that is a brave thing to do. You will be in situations where you feel like, okay, should I go to this next village, or should I, you know, do this? I need one more interview, or I need this. That it's not it's a brave thing to call to call things off. Uh and I think the way logically I can explain to my brain to do it is to uh like no one knows what I could have got, you know, apart from me, the photographer who's there. Usually the readers, when they read the article, they don't know that oh, there was another village with this story and they never went there. You know, they don't know that. So, I mean that's yeah, maybe just a way in your head to justify you know, calling off the story because it's so difficult. Yeah, you still have a great story. Exactly, exactly, exactly. So, but with that said, I think you know you have to do the best of the experience. And at the time also, this group was the new terror law in Ethiopia. It was actually passed by the parliament the same day we crossed the border or the day before. We didn't know about that. Uh so the stakes changed. But even if I had knew it, I don't think we had care you know cared really. Because at that time I believed in my press ID and I believed in that being a foreign reporter would would be a get out of jail free card. Um because this was also the first case where foreign journalists were actually prosecuted and found guilty of you know supporting terrorism for talking to one part in an ongoing conflict. It's you know, there had been cases, but their names were Mohammed or Abdi or etc. That were common. But this was the first time there was a uh you know, a Martin and a Yuan, and and uh I think that also I thought that you know my press ID would be this get out of jail free card, which is what's not. And that's an experience also to being a journalist, you know, was the thing that I was caught with my fingers in this jar where they don't want anyone, you know. And uh that's why they also took this chance to show the local journalists look what we can do to look what we can do against the two these two Swedish guys. Imagine what we could do to you, and send this message of fear basically. Uh I think the Ethiopian authorities saw this as an opportunity to use us as a pawn in the game. I mean, this is also you know 2011, the Arabic Spring, it's it's still a thing. Uh you have Libya, I mean Qaddafi's shot and arrested in the autumn of 2011. So, of course, a country which has at that time 96.5, I think, of the seats in the parliament, of course, they are afraid of an Arabic Spring situation in Ethiopia. And they choose to act rather than being you know acted upon by some other pro-democracy group or anything. That's also one of the reasons things went went the way they went.

SPEAKER_01 2:23:08

Take us back to the prison briefly. Um, I think you gave a lovely explanation for why it might not have been just become the alpha in the yard. Yeah. Even though you're all prisoners saying you were guest. But um maybe some of the sounds and some of the smells and how you would eat and to live 14 months in in such a for a sweet from Norobotten, no less. Yeah. You've got uh 10 kilometres squared to yourself, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:23:45

You know, so um yeah, just take us back to the prison and and try and give us a sense for I mean basically the word prison leads your thoughts in totally the wrong direction. I mean if you s if you try and imagine just a field, like a music festival, maybe, or something, uh but and then you have like barbed wire and and and fences, but instead of you know stages with musicians, you have these guard towers with the machine guns, and you have basically barns made out of corrugated steel. And uh you know the overpopulation is you know, I don't know, maybe the room was built for 60 or 80, and we are 300 people in the room. So it's people sleeping everywhere, you know, bunk beds with two and two in every bunk, and then the floor is just packed with people. Uh there's even at bedtime one person responsible for packing the floor, so people would lie down with their shoulders down, you know, one by one, and he would be like responsible for pushing people, you know, so that everyone would fit into the room.

SPEAKER_00 2:24:59

How did you manage that discomfort?

SPEAKER_04 2:25:03

I mean you you try and think as a reporter and try to just remember it. Uh and uh but then you also you you know you knew that it was so cold, so after a while people would, you know, crawl up against each other, and then would be small rooms where you could put your feet so you could go to the toilet, which was on the other side. There were two toilets for all 300. Uh so you could actually, you know, go walk across this kind of sea of humans. Uh and then I mean every morning you have the police shouting kotera kotera kotra and banging with their batoons on this corrugated floor, uh corrugated steel walls, like kotra kotra, cotra, it means counting, counting, and then you got up, you know, and then all 800 in the zone, because there were like four rooms with two, three hundred in each, stood two and two in these long lines, and then it took maybe twenty-thirty minutes to count everyone, and then usually some police just did a mistake and everything had to be re-counted again, you know, all 800 again. And uh the fascinating thing was also that the prison was was run by prisoners. It was almost like you know, these World War II capo systems that you read about. Uh, the police took care of the like the outer perimeter, but there were prisoners counting prisoners, there were prisoners you know, cooking the food, there were prisoners, there was this prison committee that was handling out also physical punishments to to prisoners who didn't obey. And then every Monday we had this called Gum Gamma, which was a meeting in the prison. Uh, and it was a tradition also from the war where Ethiopia you know kicked out Mengistu. And the the at the time the current government took power, they had this kind of a Maoist tradition with self-criticism in a way, and that lived on in the prison. So every Monday we had this self-criticism session where we were supposed to answer the questions like, what can we as prisoners do to improve the situation in the prison? And then when someone is like, hey, you know, people are dying, you know, we are not taking to court this guy, he's totally forgotten, he's been here for three years. And then the committee would be like, No, that's not the topic. On the agenda is what can we as prisoners do to improve the conditions for their, you know, but like Monty Python, totally bizarre, totally bizarre. And these committee members, this is the agenda. And then the second point was always on the Monday meeting: how can we improve our relationship to the police? What can we do to improve? And then, especially the foreigners, because there were, you know, people smuggling drugs from Nigeria or from Cameroon or whatever. I mean, they would they would object sometimes, and like this is bizarre, you know. Can't we talk about our human rights? Um, we want to call the Red Cross, we want to call the you know Geneva. And uh those people were usually like moved or warned or or punished for for speaking out. So it was no, it was a bizarre, bizarre, um bizarre system, really. Uh and it was also, I mean, it's not called a prison, it's called a rehabilitation center. So everything was about rehabilitating us politically and making us understand all the good things that the government was doing for the country.

SPEAKER_01 2:28:36

And uh it's a cliche to say, but it's so Orwellian. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:28:41

No, yeah, it's uh but it's funny you say because we mean you and we I mean we said to each other, we need to do something, or we will not, you know, we will we will not we might survive, but you know, mentally we will be damaged heavily, you know, from from these sessions. Uh so we asked people in Sweden to send us books, and we thought we could start a small library. And uh a lot of people sent books and postcards and letters, and there was this censor working at the prison, you know, checking everything, reading everything. And he was really upset because he had this huge amount of work suddenly. His whole desk was covered with postcards, and he was very angry and he said, You received all these postcards. You this is a provocation, you know, you need to stop. Tell people to stop writing. This is not helping you. And he censored them all and he burned them, uh, but still we saw them on his desk, so it was, and that meant something, you know, that was more important than food and water to see that you know there's a support for us, we are not forgotten. Because that was the fear as as you know, weeks went into months that you know this would be natural. Two Swedish journalists are jailed and we are just here. But seeing all those postcards was really a you know sign that there's a debate going on in Sweden where people discuss human rights and oil companies and all the things we set out to put the spotlight on. But then there was also this two piles of books I remember on his desk, one pile with uh forbidden books. You know, he censored them, and uh one pile of approved books. And then I remember on the top of the pile of forbidden books was uh uh The Age of the Warrior, uh Robert Fisk has written that one, right? Uh about like yeah, 20th century uh history, all the wars and everything. And it's like you're a convicted terrorist and you want a book called The Warrior. Like, yeah, but it's hey, it's Robert Fisk. He met with Bin Laden, and he's like Bin Laden, very much illegal, you know, just throwing it down. But then carrying the other pile back to the zone, you know, we had the George Orwell in 1984. You made it through, and we have Stolcinitz in the Gulag Archipelago, we had you know uh Kafka, the process, you know, because yeah, people thought they were funny sending us these books. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 2:31:07

They just think uh or maybe or maybe he he just reads them as oh, this is fiction for them.

SPEAKER_04 2:31:12

Yeah, and he I mean he's that censor was either he was a I mean had great humor or he was I mean you know crossly incompetent in his job, I don't know. Terrific humor. So we had this you know library with all these books, and we started to lend them out and also something to do during the days. You know, suddenly we could read, and yeah, that was really something to I mean you could really escape the prison by by reading. And and uh I also remember we'll it was not maybe the political books that were so popular, but I remember one guy from Nigeria he borrowed The Old Man and the Sea Hemingway's novel, and uh he read it, and then uh a couple of days later he came back to my bed and he he returned the book and he just said like this was a very bad fisherman. You know, not getting that whale fish up. And like, hey, it's I never heard that angle to this story. And he's like, I was a fisherman before, uh, and I would have done this and that when I get these huge fishes and blah blah blah. Uh, and it was nice also to talk with him about something else than his crime, smuggling drugs, or suddenly we could talk about the ocean, about boats and fishing, and so the books that we got in there really, you know, yeah, you know, improved our lives. I mean, hugely. Then, of course, it was we were there, was also one Lonely Planet we received from Ethiopia, and then there is a map at the beginning of Lonely Planet, which also has a border to Eritrea, two countries at war at the time, and we were reported for planning a terrorist attack on the border. And then we were like, this is a joke. I mean, why would we sit here and plan a terrorist attack? And then there were one other prisoner who confessed guilty and said he'd done this together with us. And then things went, you know, from a joke just to you know, really, really uncomfortable. And so we just said to the Swedish ambassador who had begun to visit us that I mean, you need to stop this, just tell people to stop sending books. Uh it's become too dangerous, this kind of library project. And eventually, yeah, that we get out of that map accusation somehow. Uh but it's yeah, it's uh uh I I mean you could f by reading you could be free, you know, in captivity. If you had a book, you could really escape. So that was and you had time to read. I mean that's something that I can miss. You know, you had time to read from from sunrise to to uh yeah, you could uh you could really spend your time. uh reading in a way that that I kind of miss. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:34:07

You took a terrific risk hiding a USB stick at one stage. Yeah. Um in the midst of all of this stress and anxiety of what you're going through, you still, you know, held on to the Weaver and really made that happen.

SPEAKER_04 2:34:23

Yeah. I mean it was during one of the interrogations after meeting Ryota Lemo and getting this strategy, I'm a reporter, I got the courage to actually during the interrogation to uh first create kind of a bit of a chaotic scene and then stealing there were memory cards on the on the table in front of me and I managed to steal one of the memory cards which I think is the card from the video camera from the desert. So I know there are interviews on it that that can be used. And I mean I'm so scared that I'm I'm shaking. I actually steal two cards and uh at I mean this morning during this interrogation uh the police officer I don't know why but his son is in the room as well and he's like four or five years old or something. And this child he sees me steal the cards. So you know he he starts shouting uh when I when I do it and he points to my sock because I put them in my sock and then I'm like okay he's right uh you know here it is so I hand back you know one of the cards but I still have one in my sock and there's a bit of confusion and it's um yeah kind of sorted out and then back in the cell I we have this soap and I mean I think it was kind of the escape from Alcatraz or something I saw where they hide things in a soap. So we try it we have a soap and you know we uh slice it into two parts and then make a hole in it and then put the card in the plastic and then wrap it into the soap and then just make it whole again. And that feeling you know having that memory card it feels like you know you won. Okay they they won everything up till now but now you know everything changed. Now the odds changed to our favor because now we have this memory card with everything on all the material from the desert and everything. And then we are charged and and moved to Kaliti we managed to bring this soap with us and then bring it into the prison a place where people would you know die for a soap and then we like trying to defend the soap and not no no no you can't borrow it why no it needs it's a special soap. So we managed to hide it in a you know in a prison where it's really valuable. And then during one of the meetings with the ambassador when there is one guy from the embassy who's there who's also rather brave we tell ourselves we know this guy will be there let's you know uh let's open up the soap let's try and smuggle it out so we take the memory card and we hand it over and then it's eventually shipped to Sweden and you know we can't sleep for days because we are just thinking you know they will open this card they will see all the interviews we did in the desert and everything and then the next meeting with the ambassador and the first secretary you know we are so anxious like to hear what was the reaction and he's like the card was empty and we're like no the card was empty so for months you know we kept on but it didn't really matter you know uh just having it that card during those months it uh it was so important so of course we were devastated but it's not it it played its role but in the movie I know they they changed the story so in the movie the card is filled with evidence against incriminating incriminating evidence so yeah but I think real the reality is is even better it's a better story with an empty card than a card filled with evidence before we move on to you whatever happened to Riot how did she end up she was sentenced to 12 years in jail she got breast cancer and she was told that you can apply for clemency is it bargain plea for you could confess guilty and we will you know we will release you and you will be be cared for your you will be taken to hospital she refused that she was really you know beyond brave toughest journalist I ever met and she managed to she appealed her sentence got it down to five years she spent her five years then when she was released she received all the press freedoms awards in the world she went to New York she picked up the CPJ press freedom prize and so on and then she shocked everyone by kind of becoming the person she was accused of being so she joined an armed guerrilla group yeah so in a way her years in prison pushed her into you know becoming the one they accused her of being in a way I mean she didn't she pledged her support for this group and and what was the group one of the it was not ONLF it was one one other of the I mean I forgot now one of the armed resistance group in in Ethiopia yeah which which also was was terrorist labeled then eventually she also became she started her own like TV show and uh from the United States and she left and now she lives in the state with her family and she produces uh journalism.

SPEAKER_01 2:40:14

Wow yeah okay so she survived the breast cancer yeah she survived yes now this is also a fairly lazy question that I'm sure you've been asked before so I just want to see where you like to take it but this experience clearly changed your life from a commercial perspective because it gave you a huge platform and a name um emotionally as well like you alluded to earlier but how do you reflect about 10 years on maybe it's even still too close to the event like how it changed your life I mean I'm doing the same things now that I did before I went to prison.

SPEAKER_04 2:41:04

You know I go to places I meet people I write stories I publish stories so so in a way it didn't uh you know it's what I'm good at and what I'm what I love doing. I've been maybe more convinced of the importance of journalism that it doesn't always you know beg for permissions or and really felt really the importance in in looking into like overlooked corners of the world and covering blank spots and so on. So in a way it didn't change what I do that much. Of course in a way it it has closed some doors and opened other doors for a while like Ethiopia was in war with Eritrea and you know after writing the book and everything and getting back into the saddle I thought maybe this could be a 14 month long visa application to Eritrea a country with in war with Ethiopia. Maybe they would look at my application with different eyes than other any other journalist and that was a time where no foreign journalists had been let into Eritrea for you know years and years. So I went with the book to the Eritrean embassy and explained that I want to go to Eritrea you know I've been I've been jailed by a country you're in war with I have no illusions whatsoever when it comes to Ethiopia I think you should give me a journalist visa. And eventually I was given a visa kind of unique visa to go to Eritrea and I went several trips and collected material to write a book which was called The Search for David and Davit Isak is a Swedish Eritrean journalist who has been jailed in Eritrea for 21 years now this autumn. So I could ask you know hard questions to the ministers and people in Eritrea but also try to understand the history of that country and why it is why the situation it is such as it is and could travel you know from the sea to the to the mines in in in Western Eritrea and and I had a freedom that other foreign journalists doesn't have and especially local journalists don't have at all I mean there is no free private press at all in Eritrea. So it opened doors to other countries and of course it's easy for me now that I'm you know doing a story about a chimney sweeper or something you know if I if I go to that person's house they will probably recognise me and maybe they read the book or so it means that people think they know me in a way and it makes it easier to get contact and to get people's trust in telling me their stories which is makes it easier to to work in to work in Sweden. But it's I mean I haven't had any post-traumatic stress or anything I haven't suffered in that way from the experience I went to to a trauma a special trauma clinic I mean Sweden has taken a lot of refugees so there's a lot of experiencing in handling especially mock executions from other refugees that went through this kind of trauma. So I went there just to get some tools and to handle stress and so on. And that it was good to know that there is help to where I should go to find help if if I would start you know to feel bad or to become traumatic in a way but it hasn't happened. I mean what's been difficult is kind of the survivor's guilt in a way you know me and Yuan were free all the others were still jailed especially the years after we were free there were this crackdown even more intense on journalists in Ethiopia were bloggers and students and oppositional politicians were jailed and then it felt like this kind of promise that I gave to the other inmates to kind of tell the world what I have seen. I mean it it felt really important to keep that promise and uh but it's also kind of held you back in a way because you were still there in the prison trying to get them free. So I'd say 2018 was kind of a turning point when Ethiopia changed and all the pressure from the democracy movement and from oppositional groups finally led to that the Prime Minister resigned and the new Prime Minister Abiy Ahmed who took office he released all the political prisoners and he also received the Nobel Peace Prize and so on. And then you know all my colleagues were free to to go into exile or to start a newspaper or something and for a couple of months at least it was people had the freedom of speech in Ethiopia. Then eventually the wheels starting to turn backwards and new problems arose when this state oppression was not there anymore there were new conflicts between ethnic groups and between regions and eventually also the old ruling party TPLF kind of went back to the north and started planning for a war and I think also Abi Ahmed started planning for a war immediately at least towards this old ruling party and for the last two and a half years we also had this brutal war in the north of Ethiopia in the Tigray region also underreported war where I mean there are figures of hundreds of thousand civilians who have died in that in that war which is you know not really on the media radar.

SPEAKER_01 2:47:13

So that's more than the amount of civilians that have died in the Ukraine-Russia conflict.

SPEAKER_04 2:47:26

And it's I mean you're still attached to you learn to love that country and of course I'm following the the developments closely writing about it you know also doing journalism about it and hopefully one day I can you know return to Ugaden and to Ethiopia and and uh reach the villages I I try to reach you know and see how had the situation been there or what is the situation there now. That would be a dream to uh to do someday. But in short I think it made me a better journalist uh to to get that perspective of you know being on the other side in a way and uh to feel that uh yeah to sleep next side to all of those people in that prison for so long time. It it gave you perspectives that yeah I think makes you better journalist.

SPEAKER_01 2:48:27

Well it's a phenomenal story for sure um and one which I and probably a lot of other people you know sort of would romanticize the adventure of at least being this sort of freelance journalist going into interesting places but then as well there is this whole other side of we'll never do something like that because we're not gonna we don't have so there's something in you that made you take that risk. Yeah. Put yourself in that position um yeah so many risks just to get there but then to finally so it's like um but it's not it's not like it's not the first story you do.

SPEAKER_04 2:49:09

I mean before I went illegally into Ethiopia I I've been covering a lot of you know civil wars in um in India in in the Philippines you know in Nepal you know being with different uh rebellions walking in the jungle uh of course it's not I mean it's at the time we did that story that was kind of you know business as usual you know breaking a law uh joining a movement being able to tell a story uh and uh uh yeah I think yeah that's you need that perspective it's not like you yeah from school of journalism you go hey let's you know go into a country but you're well your your boundaries push and also you want to do you want to be a better and better journalist and then you also need to to uh to do the kind of unique uh unique stories yeah well let me tee up a little bit of that um not the first story you've done no so you're from Norbotten which yeah I was born there at least in in Buden but then I moved as a three year old to Stockholm so to my mother's surprise I I I don't speak uh as I should okay but just for the people watching you can point to it on a map actually behind you yeah um and just for the people listening on audio it is on the Arctic Circle potentially right on right on it or above it?

SPEAKER_01 2:50:42

Uh bum bum bum yeah so boom is here the Arctic Circle I think it's just south of Lafot in there so maybe you're so maybe you're but anyway really far north that's a great map by the way but but uh yeah so it's I mean where even where we are right now in Stockholm the latitude is that of northern Canada. You're another I don't know six seven hundred kilometers north maybe more it's it's just uh it's a crazy crazy north remote rural place anyway so it's funny that you know from here yet according to Wikipedia yes it's you reported from Thailand Algeria Philippines UAE Cuba Venezuela Syria Lebanon Palestine Vietnam Bangladesh Singapore Cambodia Bhutan Dubai Ethiopia that didn't mention India which you just did yeah so was it always gonna be journalism you're only in your early 40s now right yeah yeah so that's a lot of experience packed into 15 20 working years yeah I mean I know I've studied journalism rather late I think um first I studied political science I studied economic history I spent two three years writing my masters in ekonomic history looking at Sankt Bartlemé which is an island in the West Indies which was a Swedish kolony for 94 years.

SPEAKER_04 2:52:27

Sweden tried to be part of the slave trade our king Gustav III bought a kolony from France and then we tried to have a West India company the Swedish you know Far East India companies rather well known and you know so Swedes are the colonialists as well we tried but we were late so you know we started at when the abolitionist movement just gained momentum that's where Sweden joined and we weren't really successful. The colony was mostly a disaster apart from the Napoleonic wars where it was uh the harbour were used by many other countries. But still I studied that kind of Swedish colonial experiment. But then I felt you know let the dead bury the dead in a way there is let's focus on what's going on today in the world. So then I I I applied for uh if you had an exam you could have this like one and a half year quick crash course in journalism so I applied for that and studied that and then after after that I I got a job at a monthly cultural paper as an editor but always had this idea of you know being a foreign correspondent so I met a photographer at the time his name was Junas Gratzer his name is Jonas Gratzer and he also had the same dream but he was you know taking pictures of apartments for uh different uh yeah when an apartment was going to be sold he was good at taking pictures of the rooms and so on uh but then we just you know we went to an Indian restaurant and we draw a map of Southeast Asia on a tissue and we said let's go to Nepal and try you know so we took I think two weeks off and we went to Kathmandu and we did you know everything under the sun we did all the stories we did three four stories a day and before going there we bought or looked through all the papers at Press Byron okay we have this you know Sweden is a small country it's a small language but there is this huge magazine uh flora you know it's there are magazines about everything in Sweden so there's this dog magazine there is this magazine for bus drivers there is this magazine for you know trade union magazine for nurses and so we just went okay let's find a street dog how is the rabiest situation in Kathmandu well how is yeah how is to drive a bus in Himalaya and okay let's do some travel stories which is the best coffee in Kathmandu this tea loving country for a coffee magazine and we just you know okay the first homosexual parliamentarian blah blah blah for QX and and eventually we managed to you know pitch as many stories so that we felt after this trip that hey let's just you know resign and travel together. And so then we started and we traveled 200 days a year for for yeah for it until I was arrested in Ethiopia and uh yeah I mean did did everything in and uh and you just missed from country to country to country. Yeah we found kind of the magic by doing everything everything from no but just being prepared Do everything from travel to gorillas to which was kind of surreal, you know. You you go in uh in the Philippines from walking, you know, two weeks with the gorillas in the jungle, being you know also chasen by the army airplanes, and then you fly to the next uh island and you do this travel story from this crystal beach with crystal clear water, and uh uh yeah, then you just yeah, do the next. So it was uh yeah, we we made it we made it work and uh also always had like okay, one or two stories that we felt were you know the most important one, and then you had a couple of bread stories, so to say, that that could finance uh the trip and the travel. But I remember also early on I wrote a lot about trafficking, and to be honest, it was because it was a topic that that sold, you know, sex sales, and also you know, the work against sex slaves cells. There were always magazines interested in buying stories of victims for trafficking, and a lot of like women magazines and so on. So we always did like trafficking stories. And then during one of the stories, I was at this shelter for survivors in Kathmandu, and I was sitting next to her. I still remember her name, it was Gita. She was 19 something. Uh, she had been lured away from her village into into India, promised a job which turned out to be a brothel. She'd worked there for years, then she managed to escape, and now she was back in Kathmandu at this center for survivors called Mate in Nepal. And she tells me her horrible story, and with all the details, uh, and I, you know, write them down and I turn off my recorder and like say thank you for the interview. And then she, I remember she leans forward and she puts her, you know, hands on the table and she just stares me in the eyes and says, Why do you want to know this? And I'm like, Whoa, what happened? I was the one, you know, telling the questions up until recently. And while I start to think about some kind of answer, like it's but it's good, I can write this story, and then what happened to you? Maybe it won't happen to others. And she's like, I've been here for years giving these interviews. So many times I tell my life story. What will happen when your story is published? And I'm like, Yeah, it's hard. And I'm like, what will happen? And then she's like, Why don't you talk to the people who bought me? You know, why don't you talk to the people who sold me? Why don't you talk to the brothel owners? Why did all journalists come here to talk to me? I told my story so many times, and I just felt you know dirty in a way. I felt like, am I part of this trafficking industry as well? This is my my role is just you know, telling these stories. And and then the photographer Yunas he also said, but hey, we let's go to the brothel in India, you know. Let's uh let's follow in the footsteps of the human traffickers. And and suddenly, you know, doing that, going to the crime scene, uh, talking to the brothel owners, you know, you understood that this is not just this is not about sex, you know, this is about money. This is about it's hugely profitable to to run these brothels. Uh you know, the the profits are are really extreme because you could sell, it's not like a product you sell once, you sell it, you know, over and over and over and over again. And uh also all my like knowledge from studying you know the slave trade and economic history, suddenly that process, you know, I understood the process more of you know the the financial economy of trafficking. And and also that you know you could focus a lot on poverty reduction in the villages, or you could focus on you know start trying to stop people at the borders, which a lot of anti-trafficking things are focusing on. But but if you need if you need to kill something like slavery or trafficking, you need to hit the profit, you know, you need to hire the the alternative costs of running this business, and then you need to hit you need to hit the brothels and you need to hit the people making money out of this. And suddenly I saw the issue in kind of more clear terms. It's not an issue about people buying or selling sex, but it's it's an industry. And I mean we managed to to stop slavery once, you know, by by abolishing it and making it illegal and unmoral, so it's also possible to uh to stop trafficking. Uh but that's I think that also put me on on the track to okay, you need to go to the you need to go to the to the places where the crime you know happened, you need to go to the brothels. It's not enough just to talk to the victims. And so much of journalism of today is still just talking to the victims and listening to the victim story. But there are perpetrators, there are people responsible, and we need to go there as well to the crime scenes and do that job. That's when the risk starts coming in, and that's when it becomes really, really difficult. And the victims are so easy to get to. You have NGOs and you have a whole industry of people who will help you, who will serve you the victims, like this girl Gita, you know, being served for journalist after journalist after journalist to tell her story. But no one was really investigating. Okay, but who what's the name of this brothel? Who bought you, who sold you, what was the cost? What's the cost of a condom? What does a beer cost? You know, how does this equation look? The my you know, microeconomics of of trafficking, how does it look? And uh yeah, by by doing that I felt the stories became became better, and and that's also something I I you know took with me since Gita told me some important you know things in in my future journalism. So that's yeah, that was one uh kind of a turning point in how to how to work as a freelancer uh and and my responsibility as a freelancer and the responsibility as a journalist and the stories I tell and how I tell them in a way.

SPEAKER_01 3:02:33

I definitely get the sense that you've got an incredible sort of memoir autobiography in you one day. So I don't want to just keep taking advantage of the time that you've allotted. Um but if you could perhaps tell a story that really stands out to you from the years before Ethiopia, you've just told this one about human trafficking. Just uh just another experience that really stood out to you that is one you created by putting yourself in the position by taking the risk as a freelance journalist, by front loading the cost, having no certainty of anything coming out on the other end.

SPEAKER_04 3:03:13

I mean, in in the early years I did a lot in the Philippines. Uh it's such an interesting country with you know 600 years of Spanish colonialism and then 100 years under the United States. It creates this strange political cocktail of violence and vibrant civil society, and and also everyone speaks English.

SPEAKER_01 3:03:40

Exactly like movie villains of all time. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:03:44

Yeah. And now I mean his uh his daughter is is elected, right? It's also strange, wasn't it? No, it's uh bonbon. It's the same. No, it's not it's the son, it's the son, so it's the son, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:03:55

But her son.

SPEAKER_04 3:03:56

Yeah, her son, yeah, exactly, exactly. No, so uh so the Philippines was a place where you've where I learned that you could find a lot of a lot of stories, and people were also brave enough to tell their stories. I mean there are so many things. I remember the the the massacre in in uh in Mindanao, where 56 journalists were killed at the same time. Uh during uh uh we were there shortly afterwards, uh together with one of the surviving uh journalists who was supposed to be on that press conference but he never went. And uh you know, just going th going over that hill and also going to the police station and seeing all these massacred cars, because what they did was they they shot everyone and then they just buried they had caterpillars with them and just made these huge holes which they put in the bodies and the cars and the buses and with the satellite dishes and everything. It was basically a rivalry between uh the Ampatwans and Maginda Datus, too political families in on this island. I mean that's that's a point where you felt that this is a dangerous profession in a way, uh of course. I mean, walking with the NPA and the also in the jungle, the the New People's Army. Um that's where the photographer got sick. Uh he was really sick, but he was treated by the guerrillas medics. I don't know if that's a good story to tell. I remember I was also early on as a freelancer, and we walked for you know uh days, and then we met this legendary rebel leader Kauris, and he had walked, you know, he also walked for a week to meet us and something, and then when he sees me, he's like, But where is where's your video camera? I don't have a video camera. I'm a freelance journalist from Sweden, and he was so disappointed. Uh but still after a while he he of course told me his story. Uh no, but maybe maybe the story that from from the Philippines, there was one uh it has to do with trafficking actually. There when we while we were there, there were two Swedish guys um arrested for um for human trafficking in in Mindanao. And we went to they were in the city CDO Kayagande Oro, where they were arrested. And there was one dancer from the Malma Opera and one IT technician from from Stockholm they had met in in Thailand and chose to go into the cyber sex industry. So they had started uh together with local people, of course, uh they rented this house uh and then they built like 20 cubicles, and then they had 20 girls working in these cubicles in front of live cameras and on the site livejasmine.com, which is like an internet sex page, and then people paid them to do different things from all over the world. And they thought they were like of innovative, you know, before their time, and this was illegal in Thailand, but it was still legal in the Philippines, so they thought. Um, but one of the girls is taken from another city to Kagandi Oro, and after the police kind of hits uh and arrests them, she testifies that she she didn't want to be there and she didn't want to work there. Some of the other girls say that this was a better job than what they had at the brothels, and uh they don't want to file charges against these two Swedes. Uh so then we are there for I think two weeks talking to everyone in connected to this story, uh trying to uh to tell it's as you know as nuanced as as possible. Uh they are later on convicted to life in prison. Uh, they are still there today. Uh they tried to escape once, uh, but they were arrested again and and are still imprisoned because also in the Philippines this became uh a matter of national pride. Like, okay, we have these two foreigners abusing our women, uh, so the trafficking law was really used as hard as possible. While I mean anyone who's been to the Philippines knows that you have still whole cities that are like big brothels, so it's uh there's a lot of yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:08:54

A detail from uh a book recently written by Nathan Lynch, who um it's called The Lucky Laundry. It's a massive anti-money laundering expose in Australia mostly. Uh yeah, a lot of the most heinous sexual crimes, especially against children. Yeah, exactly. It's in the Philippines.

SPEAKER_04 3:09:13

It's horrible, it's horrible. So, of course, a lot of double standards to this issue.

SPEAKER_01 3:09:19

Uh but look, um I'm just trying to think of uh whether this is just me being interested or whether this is something the audience would be interested in. Because in this part there's a lot of projection from me. Yeah. You know, uh like the the thrill of the adventure, the call to action, the potential of doing something great, telling a great story, being involved in something great. Um, you're a young guy, you've just finished, you've you've you've sat down, you've drawn a map of the Southeast Asia and said, let's go there, let's do it. I mean, this adventurous part of you, did do you recognize that that's uncommon, it's unusual, you know, to really pull the trigger and actually do it. And at the time did you feel that way, or was it just like, yeah, this is what we're gonna do?

SPEAKER_04 3:10:15

I mean, I don't think it's the adventure that attracts me. Um I don't think that is the case for most Swedish foreign correspondents or foreign reporters. Uh I mean if you were into adventure, you would climb mountains or you would go rafting, or you know, you would not wanting to do it.

SPEAKER_01 3:10:38

That's like that's action.

SPEAKER_04 3:10:39

Yeah, but you want to do you want to do something unique. You know, you want to do this, you want to be the best journalist there is. You want to file this story that really changes things. I think that is the the motivation, really. It's not uh I mean I met I met reporters and photographers that are really, you know, they are there for the for the adrenaline, for the rush, for the kicks. Uh I've you know, yeah, I've I've seen those guys. Uh I don't uh and maybe as a photographer you need to have that more because you can't really miss the opportunity while it's there. But I mean it's a boring answer. Okay, but okay. There are good uh forces and and bad forces, but I don't think uh I mean for me uh yeah you mentioned Norbotten, but I also my my mother worked uh for Seda uh for a couple of years. I grew up in Botswana in the south. You did, yeah. So I spent, you know, uh yeah, when I was like 9, 10, 11, I lived there, and of course, that gave you perspectives on the world and also kind of an understanding that the world is bigger than Sweden. Um also coming home, you know, turning 11, 12, and you know, you have no idea who Madonna is or who Michael Jackson is, but you know everything about African antelopes and snakes, and wow, that's amazing. Yeah, so that was you know kind of a tough time in school to uh watch MTV and try to learn okay, who are these people that I should know of, and no one was interested in my knowledge in you know the difference between Thomson or Grant Scasel. So uh I think having that that background and also uh from early on, you know, traveling a lot, traveling a lot when I was 17 when I went like to Vietnam, one of my first you know, backpacking trips, you could say. Um maybe that's it wasn't such a big step, you know, to go freelancing uh for me. Uh because I had been yeah, traveling and and kind of uh yeah traveling in the world before that.

SPEAKER_01 3:13:15

Yeah, look, Martin, we've been going three and a half hours. I'm gonna wrap it up with four questions. Two that I like to ask every guest, and then two that are very much for you. Um who are adventurers journalists that you admire? They don't have to necessarily be alive, but just people that you if you if if they read your work, you would really, really want to impress them. So what do we have here?

SPEAKER_04 3:13:46

We have Alexevich. Okay. Uh this is a very important thing. She has written a lot from Sink voice, Sink Poika, about uh the Soviet Union's war in Afghanistan. Uh I mean I really love her way of writing, her way of compiling a lot of stories and voices into one you know, one narrative. Uh she's one. I mean, I I was a great admirer of Robert Fisk. Uh I think he was, you know, brave and he was uh really had his own voice in seeing both the micro and the macro level in his stories. You know, he both had the families and he had the geopolitical and the political dimension as well. Uh I mean the one that I really admire today is uh uh the guy who does this out of Eden walk. Uh forgot his name now, but he's doing this national geographic project where he he walks around the globe. He started in Ethiopia seven, eight years ago and walked through in the traces of mankind uh through out of Africa and then you know through Saudi Arabia, and now he's in China, which will take him like eight months to pass. What a legend. And he's you know talking to people on the way, and it's such a humble way to to meet people, not to come with an airplane, but you know, oh I walked here from Ethiopia. Out of Eden. Yeah, how's what's happening? How's your life? And uh no, I love his dispatches and his way of his view on journalism and really this you know slow journalism taking it to the extreme, really. And also finding these stories that are not about a conflict or a war, but still determine the fate of humanity in a way, you know, how do we grow crops? How do we adapt to changing weather? Uh yeah, I really love his uh I forgot his name now. Uh thosa three uh bum bum bum.

SPEAKER_03 3:15:58

Dun dun dun.

SPEAKER_04 3:16:00

I mean when it comes to Sweden we have one one journalist, Magita Gad. Uh she she was one of the blank spot founders many years ago, but um she was recruited to express and uh I think she's I mean she changed the game in a way that she doesn't go home, you know, she stays in the story. She lived in in Kabul now for four or five years. And uh I think that's also a perspective that we need in journalism that the time is over when we can just fly in, you know, and do our story and fly back. We need to spend more time in the regions that that we are covering. So yeah, she's also the one that I read with. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:16:42

Nice. That's a good mix. Yeah. Advice for young people who would listen to this podcast and think, wow, that should be a guy. I really I like that.

SPEAKER_04 3:16:59

I would like to also Don't take advice from a dead guy, isn't that an expression? Take advice from a jailed shot guy. Do this. No, but uh but you know what I mean. I I'm not trying to um no bah knowledge by heart, really. Learn things uh that you could take that you could remember if the shit really hits the fan. And uh figure eights, remember. Remember to run in figure eights if you're ever locked up.

SPEAKER_01 3:17:29

But for example, you said you could go to the press bid on, was it basically? Yeah, and you could look at all the magazines. Yeah, yeah. Is that still the case? Right now, if you want to really survive as a freelancer.

SPEAKER_04 3:17:42

I'd say now I would start in a different end. I mean, now I would turn directly to the listeners, viewers, or or readers, like you know, start a podcast or a vlog or uh Substack. I mean, there are so many possibilities now for for an I mean young aspiring journalists that were not there when when I started. So it's just, you know, you could crowdfund in the beginning, you know, smaller assignments and then larger and larger and just try and find ways to reach your own generation in in a way that they will, you know, in the way that they want the world, you know, packaged. Uh I said, yeah, that that would be my advice. I mean no one will give you this this job as a foreign correspondent. You'll have to create it, you know, for yourself.

SPEAKER_01 3:18:35

And finally two questions I like to ask as many guests as possible. What is a country that you're particularly bullish on? Bullish like uh I don't like it or like no bullish is say you if you could purchase a piece of it you would expect it to increase in value. But value is how you determine it. I'm not talking about a a country with a great economic future. No like just a country you like you would like to invest in.

SPEAKER_04 3:19:06

I mean the you know flying over Somalia seeing the the shores you know the kilometer mile after mile after mile of you know white uh beaches and wow I've never we've never had Somalia it's so so why? I mean it's so pristine and and unique and uh you know once there's peace in Somalia you have the most the most beautiful coastline that you could ever think of. It's really the Somalian coastline. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:19:34

Interesting. And finally we've we've now made it to the end.

SPEAKER_04 3:19:43

If you could witness a conversation between any two people of history dead or alive no language barrier so listen to a podcast who you're listening to I would like to hear what Bilt says to Jan Lundin and the other Lundin family at the board meeting after they are become aware of that they are charged for human rights violation for their operations in in Sudan I would like to hear what they have to say to each other.

SPEAKER_01 3:20:31

Amazing amazing Mr Schiber thank you so much for unbelievable really thank you so much so thank you again Martin Schiber uh we sat I don't know for what four hours or something at the end of a work day um just recording and chatting and chatting and chatting and I think because he's such a nice guy he he didn't he couldn't say to me Ryan shut up let's turn this shit off and let's go home um so again another guy just extremely generous with his time so thank you Martin for that it was an incredible experience for me to meet you sit in your office and do this in person I 100% 110% prefer doing these podcasts in person and finally my ambition for this podcast it is to corner the podcast market for eclectic curiosities in whatever country it is that you're listening in from now what does that actually mean there's no categorization for eclectic curiosities there are no lists for me to appear on or compete on for eclectic curiosities instead all I can do is ask you to leave fat juicy healthy energy inducing reviews please pump that good juice into the algorithm swipe up your apps now you've got Spotify leave five stars you've got Apple leave five stars a review leave all the good stuff and that is all from me until next week thank you my dairy my dairy my dear ingenuous listener and as well to you Mr Shibe oh I should also mention he's got a movie on Netflix 438 days a book 438 days if the book sells enough copies Martin has agreed that I can narrate the audiobook so buy the books watch the movie all the best ciao