124: Ami Vitale | One Of America's Great Photojournalists

🎙️: https://atlasgeographica.com/ami-vitale/

Ami Vitale is one of the worlds great photographers. 

She has lived in mud huts, war zones, battled malaria, donned a panda suit, was with the last living northern white rhino as he passed and has reported with intimacy from communities all over the world.

She is a Nikon ambassador, National Geographic photographer and just one of the coolest people I have ever gotten a chance to speak with on this podcast. 

In this podcast, Ami busts the old myth of national geographic photographers, she Confirms the risk and romance of journalistic adventure, but as well tampers my projections with a heartfelt dose of realism.

-----

• 00:00 - Introduction.
• 01:37 - Why Skin In The Game Is Everything.
• 06:52 - How To Make It As A Professional Photographer.
• 18:10 - Adventure, Thrill & Romance.
• 24:52 - Benefit Of Being A Woman In A Conflict Zone.
• 32:27 - Risk.
• 40:38 - Me Embarrassing Myself.
• 47:33 - Rapid Fire Questions. 
• 49:28 - Serendipity, Country You Are Bullish On & Conversations Between Any Two People.

🍻☕: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/ryanhogg

Important Things Mentioned.

• Bjorn Persson - Swedish Wildlife Photographer
• Marsel Van Oosten - One Of The Worlds Greatest Photographers
• Photography Starter Pack

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Amy Vitali is one of the world's great photographers. She's lived in mud huts, war zones, battled malaria, donned a panda suit, was with the last living northern white rhino as he passed away, and she has reported with intimacy from communities all over the world. She's a Nikon ambassador, National Geographic photographer, and just one of the coolest people I've ever gotten a chance to speak with on this podcast. In this podcast, Amy busts the old myth of National Geographic photographers. She confirms the risk and romance of journalistic adventure, but as well tampers my projections with a heartfelt dose of realism. I absolutely cannot thank Amy enough for joining me. She is someone that I really look up to. Now, you all know the drill. This podcast took me five hours to put together, but will only take you five seconds to review. Which means take those five seconds and review this podcast. If you're using a phone, swipe it up, open up the app. Assuming you're on Spotify, it's as easy as pie. It's just swipe in the app, in the podcast, bang, five star review. If you're an Apple, it's one extra step. You've got to leave a little bit of a comment. Doesn't have to be a fancy comment, but five stars and a review is very helpful. And on any other app that you're listening on, it would be nice to leave reviews. Pump that good juice of yours into the various algorithms. And with absolutely no further ado, here is the great Amy Vitale. What's your favorite place to revisit because of its bounty of photographic potential?

SPEAKER_00 1:42

I actually think you just nailed the secret to photography. It is about repetition. It's about knowing the complexities of any story. So what my favorite place doesn't matter, it's it's actually all about repetition and building relationships and understanding with people and the place itself. So I mean, my personally, it evolves like it just depends. So for example, I lived in India for five years and and you know, worked on one story almost exclusively, which was Kashmir. And, you know, and then I worked on the panda story for three years. And now I've been working for 13 years on one story in Kenya about the northern white rhinos. And I just think it's all about committing, really going deep into any particular story. I'm not a travel photographer, and I don't like to answer those questions in a way because I feel like people take it as like, oh, that's a good place to travel to. And in fact, if we're talking about photography, the best photography is really those people that kind of go deep into a story. So it's all about depth and meaning for me.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

So, like uh when Sebastian Salgado just takes off for five years on a road trip through Brazil, that's the type of commitment and depth you think can only bring those sort of heavy, heavy rewards in terms of the photographs.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

Absolutely. I mean, I think that the best images come from those people that have spent years on one subject. And and that in today's world, it's I mean, I'm I think we're just oversaturated with these travel, this idea that you can travel to a place and bring back these exotic images, but they're so superficial. And I find it fascinating because I judge competitions all the time, and I I see so many of the the same images which feel like they've been copied. Um, and and usually it's people parachuting in, and it doesn't matter where you are coming from, but like people will, you know, I'll see like a Turkish photographer travel to Vietnam, for example, to take a picture, and then a Vietnamese traveling, you know, everybody's traveling thinking that the exotic images are going to be the most powerful, but the truth of the matter is, you know, it's all about going deep, you know, and really evocative images show an understanding of a place and its people or wildlife or whatever it may be. And we I really want to encourage passionate photographers to to get away from that way of scene, which is pretty, very, you know, very um superficial often, and and to just try to yeah, try to evoke and teach us something that we may not know about a place.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

Give us an example where your repeated visiting of a place was um it paid off for you.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Well, for example, I think one of my most iconic images that people recognize immediately is the image of the last northern male ri m white rhino moments before he passed away being comforted by one of his keepers. That was not an image that I parachuted in for. I had developed relationships and I had been covering the story at that point for um nine years. And so I was the only photographer they invited back to come and tell that story. And I I think that it's all about your relationships, earning the trust, earning the respect of the people that they um call upon you when something important is happening. And so I think you need to, you know, you need to establish that trust, and that takes time to truly understand one another takes time.

SPEAKER_02 6:21

And um something we briefly, very, very briefly spoke about off air was um the finance of it all, right? So you're developing these relationships, but um it costs something to develop those relationships, it costs something to be in the place, you know, to have the finance to live and then to go into these expensive areas and so forth. So I'd love for you to reflect on that a little bit via this uh question the distance between you being a university student, your brother calling you the observer of all observers, and then um fulfilling the ambition to becoming a professional photographer.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

Well, it's evolved so much since I began. So my advice will be different for somebody who's just starting out today. But when I started, I actually became an editor first and really learned the business and where I saw there being holes that I could possibly fill. And so I kind of started backwards in a way. I think a lot of photographers become editors later on in life. I started off learning the business and developing those relationships so that when I went out into the field, I knew editors at that point. And um, and then I saved up a ton of money. I mean, I worked over, like I would just work any shift that I could take and do all the overtime that I could, and you know, and then take part-time jobs and did everything to just make a little money, and then I applied for grants all the time, and I would have these story ideas, and then I would go and spend six months telling one story, bringing it back, pitching it around. And the beauty of it back then was that you know, there was no digital, you know, that the the internet was just kind of starting, and so I could pitch it to magazines all over the world, and today it's a little bit harder because once a story goes up, it's not exclusive anymore and everybody sees it. So I would say it's changed quite a bit. I've actually created a resource page on my website for aspiring photographers that lists like a number of different opportunities. I also have just created a nonprofit, and I'm I've launched two $20,000 grants for environmental photographers to work on a story in their backyard, and um, and I've created a marketplace for photographers to sell their work because I believe that we need to create more opportunities for photographers, and I want to be a part of that change because I know how much of a struggle it was for me, and I want to start lifting up the next generation behind me. And I just I feel like it's part of my responsibility if I want to see great photography, you know, in the world. I think we need to do more to lift each other up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:33

So so back um when you were coming up, you would work like a maniac and take those savings um and just take a big risk that, hey, if I go away and tell a good story and get good photos, then someone will likely be a buyer on the other end and you know you break even, presumably. Maybe cutting a profit didn't even matter. So that those same economics don't necessarily exist anymore. Um, how does one work around that apart from getting uh grants and funding in advance?

SPEAKER_00 10:06

I actually think that part hasn't changed, and I just want to kind of dispel a myth that people might have about working for National Geographic, for which I do. It is not like they go and support me to cover anything I want to cover. I usually have to develop the project and invest in it first and show them proof of stake in a way. Like, here's what I can bring back to you. And um, and it's still, even now, I've been doing this for you know almost 30 years as a career. I still have to invest in every single story I work on.

SPEAKER_02 10:46

And your personal finances.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

Oh, yes, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 10:50

That's such a fascinating insight. I okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Yeah, I think a lot of people are like, oh, you know, you work for National Geographic and the path is paved for you. No, it's like it's the assumption. I have to work really hard and invest in stories myself. Then, you know, show the editors like here's a few images, this is what it's gonna look like. And um, and I also have to apply for grants, and I also have to take my own savings. And, you know, and I want to give one example, that same story I talked about, the Northern White Rhino story. When I first pitched that back in 2009, guess how many editors said yes, they wanted me to cover the end of a species? The time there were only eight of them alive, they were all in zoos, and they were moving four of them from a zoo in the Czech Republic back to Kenya in this last-ditch effort to save the whole species. I was thinking, this is an amazing story, everybody's gonna want it. Guess how many editors signed up for it and said, we want you to cover this. Just take a guess, Ryan. How many?

SPEAKER_02 12:00

It sounds like zero.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

Yeah, zero. So here's what happened. I knew in my heart I was on to something very important. You know, it was a keystone species. It it, you know, had lived on this planet for millions of years but couldn't survive us, mankind. But nobody wanted it. So the first thing I did, I went back to every single editor I wrote and said, Hey, why aren't you interested in this? And they almost all of them came back with the same thing. And they said, Yeah, it's a great story for radio. I don't see it being visual. And, you know, I learned that is a really important tip for any photographer listening. You have to explain how the visuals are gonna be, what you're gonna see, because they can't imagine it. They imagined these animals being in these big crates, you would never see them. How could this be a visual story? They're gonna be flown in the middle of the night. Tell me what you're gonna see. So I immediately went back to them and repitched it and said, and I had also already invested in the story. I had images I could show with show them and said, no, sorry, this is what it's gonna be. It's gonna be this, it's gonna be very visual, and it's and the other thing you need to explain, why is there a sense of urgency to cover this right now? And why is this relevant to you know, anybody around the world? So you have to make it important for all of humanity, you have to express a sense of urgency, and you also have to show how it's gonna be visual, and usually that requires some investment of yourself. And I would just say that a lot of us, you know, I wasn't a very confident photographer. I I, you know, didn't know if it was gonna work, but I had to believe in my own. I think it's really important and to believe in yourself. That is so critical. Whatever you do in this life, like have a little belief in your own ideas. Because if you don't, nobody else will.

SPEAKER_02 14:14

How did your um life change, or at least your how people perceived you as a photographer once you officially became a partner with National Geographic?

SPEAKER_00 14:26

Um, I mean, definitely it's an incredible platform, and I am so grateful for that platform. I think that it allows you to, you know, share with hundreds of millions of people all over the planet, and with that comes great responsibility, too, I might add. But um there's a lot of pressure, and it does it does absolutely help to have that, you know, that credential. And at the same time, I would say to those that are not there yet, exploit your status before you become big because there's actually a lot of benefit to being an unknown. Um, I think a lot of people assume that the doors come open when you're working for National Geographic, but actually the truth is quite the opposite can happen. People will say, I don't want you here. I don't want that kind of platform. And you know, when you're just a student starting out and learning, it's a great place to be. It's a great place to experiment, to discover your voice, your, you know, whatever it is that you, you know, I it's a great place because people are not as afraid of you. I think that with a platform like that, there is a certain amount of, you know, first of all, pressure to you know, deliver the goods. And and it's hard to make powerful stories. There's a lot of pressure in this in this position, but um, you know, there's also a lot of benefit, and I'm very grateful for those opportunities. But I also want to say to those people that are not there yet, you know, just enjoy wherever it is that you are because there's always like, you know, there's two sides to the coin, and there's always like just be comfortable in where you are in the moment and don't worry about where your work is gonna go and you know your your own career. Worry about the quality of the work that you're creating. That is the most important thing that should be on your mind, not you know what publication is gonna publish it. Because you create powerful work, believe me, you will get to National Geographic. You will find the road there. The main thing to be focusing your energy on is going deep, telling a good, powerful story, with you know, being ethical. You know, also I will say who you are as a person matters. Your ethics, your ethos is just as important as how good you are at making a picture and telling a story.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

Okay. Can you say more about that?

SPEAKER_00 17:15

Yeah, if you're a jerk, it matters. You know, people want to work with people that are not egomaniacs, people want to work with people that are um kind and leave, you know, a positive, you know, leave like your footprints, the the footprints you leave behind matter. You do not, you know, how you behave in the field, how you treat people, how, you know, it all matters. All of that is equally as important to like how many beautiful images you can make.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

I wonder, um, I think uh for me definitely, and this is me just projecting onto the I suppose the lifestyle of a photojournalist. Um, but people perceive lots of adventure, thrills, romance, this type of um, these types of I guess emotions attached to it. Uh how much truth is there to the reputation?

SPEAKER_00 18:18

Oh, it's true. It's true. All of that's very true. It's a very adventurous life. You have to like um, you can't be a I think you have to be comfortable with discomfort. Let's put it that way. I thrive in chaos. I love not knowing what is gonna come next. This is where I this is my happy place. Like I like, I like the unknown. I like um a little bit of discomfort creates empathy, and empathy is the wellspring of creativity, and I that that is the place that I'm most comfortable. And I would say that that's yeah, those are qualities you might want to have if you want to do this job.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Speaking of uh discomfort or being comfortable with discomfort, you spent six months in uh is is it Guinea or Equatorial Guinea? I forget now.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

Guinea-Bissau.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

Guinea-Bissau is Bissau, so a West African nation. Yes. Talk about that experience.

SPEAKER_00 19:25

Oh, it was most of the it was the most profound life-changing experience. Um, and I'm so grateful for it. I um I lived in a tiny village. I shared a mud hut with um two women and their children, and learned poolar. There was no electricity, no running water, no doctors. Um and I thought I was gonna stay for a couple of weeks, and the weeks turned into months, and the months turned into half a year. And what I discovered blew my mind, and it was beautiful because I think that we're often given two very popular narratives of the whole continent of Africa. On the one hand, you have war, famine, plagues like Ebola, or you have safaris and exotic animals, and both of those stories are true. But what I discovered was another narrative, which is a people very connected to the natural world. They understood that their lives depended on nature for their outcome. Nature was their supermarket, and they taught me so much about being connected to the natural world, what that really means. I think very many of us in the West have completely lost a connection to the natural world. It's totally disconnected, and they shaped how I see the world. I um I think that you could look at the images and assume, you know, how different our worlds were, and that was what I expected. But the thing that really actually surprised me about this experience was how much we shared, how how um how similar our lives were. And and they they taught me, you know, there was a deep reverence for the natural world. They believed, you know, spirits lived in the trees. They um, you know, from the spiritual world to the physical world. And I I yeah, I see the world very differently because of that experience.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

Um, and how old were you when you did that?

SPEAKER_00 21:40

Um I think the first time I went, I was, let me just think about it. Um I was I'm trying to remember. I think I was 18 the first time I went. My sister was in the Peace Corps and I visited her, and then I went back in my Early 20s, and that's when I lived there.

SPEAKER_02 22:03

Talk a little bit about what maybe the similarities were then. If it's a place with no electricity, I mean, presumably, you know, dad's not getting in the car and driving to work each morning. So how what are the similarities?

SPEAKER_00 22:18

Oh, I mean, everything. I mean, I think I that our dreams, um, we all want love, a better life for our children. Um, you know, I mean, just what it means to be human. And they, you know, just resilience, um, joy, laughter. I think like I I mean, it was one of the most challenging places in terms of like physically, I got malaria, you know, I was there at the end of the dry season, and we only would eat one bowl of rice with nothing on it at the end of the day. I learned what hunger felt like there. I learned, you know, what how hard people work to just survive. I um, you know, but I I I found so much um so much that I I never expected, which was like, you know, just laughing in the face of tragedy. Um, and what I mean by human resilience, it is powerful to understand what that truly means, how how um strong people are, how you know, people always seek out joy and laughter. And some of my best moments in my whole life were then, you know. I I just ugh, it was it was amazing and and hard, you know, and I think my best moments always are the hardest moments. You know, I do really believe that. Like I am not afraid of a little bit of suffering, honestly, because I think that it's the best. I mean, it it it sucks when you're in the middle of it, but I can look back on those experiences and know that those were when I grew like I transformed the most. I found the best version of who I am supposed to be in my hardest moments. And so I'm grateful for for those experiences. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 24:26

Of course. No, of course. Um I I think that a story like like that, um, and you know, equivalent stories for other great photographers are the source of a lot of inspiration for other aspiring photojournalists or wildlife photographers or um, you know, social photographers and so forth. Who were your uh heroes is the wrong word. Who were photographers you admired similarly um whilst coming up and to this day?

SPEAKER_00 24:57

Sure. I mean, so it would you probably could guess this, but it would be female photographers because there were not a whole lot. And I had male colleagues who I think out of kindness would tell me I didn't belong there. I um I think they were worried about me when I was covering conflicts.

SPEAKER_02 25:16

You sound very kind.

SPEAKER_00 25:18

Yeah, no, I mean I think it came from a place of like just being worried about myself.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

Like protection.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

Yeah, like you're gonna be raped, you're gonna be killed, you should leave, you don't belong here, that kind of thing. And um, and so I would say I really looked for strong women photographers who there were not many, honestly. I could count them on my hands, and um, and you know, that but I really uh they were amazing, and there's a long list of them, but I mean I'll mention a couple that are are good friends, um, which are Maggie Steber, Lynn Johnson, um, I got to meet Eve Arnold, who was the first woman in Magnum, uh, Susan Mike Mizel. Um, she also was in Magnum, which was you know a great photo agency. But there, you know, I mean, when I was starting out, I I couldn't get a job. And I would show my work and um and the the usually it was it was always men hiring, and they just couldn't envision me doing this because I was very shy, very quiet. Um, I didn't, you know, in their eyes, they didn't think that I had what it took. And um I just had to go off and do it on my own. And then I was so grateful because I came up in the beginning of kind of the digital world where I could just email pictures and they didn't know what my gender was. So I would send pictures in, you know, I would get the editors' email addresses and pitch stories, and they had no idea if I would they would always say, Thank, you know, dear sir. I mean, I I can't tell you how many people for the first 10 years of my career it was always, dear sir, thank you.com. Exactly. And and so um, yeah, though it was really important for me to have women role models um to know that it was possible to do this.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

Uh Lindsay Drarario writes in her autobiography that uh many times in her life she's actually experienced a great advantage over her male colleagues in um very testy situations because people just inherently trust women more and feel more comfortable around women and they're less threatening, and therefore maybe uh that you get more access to those extremely raw and vulnerable moments uh that your big brawly male equivalent might not.

SPEAKER_00 27:50

Definitely. I mean, I and I would say that even the women's world, you know, a lot of my in particularly in more conservative cultures. Um I I I definitely feel that is so true that I I could expose or you know, share the stories that were not being told. And I mean, a lot of doors did close to me as a woman, but I would just sort of look for the the doors that were opened up. Um, and that usually was sort of telling the stories of of what women were experiencing behind the front lines of war or wherever it may be.

SPEAKER_02 28:28

Yeah, yeah. On one more subject of admiration. Do you have a particularly favorite photo? Is it possible to have a favorite photo of all time? And if so, do you have one?

SPEAKER_00 28:43

Um, it's not possible to have one. There are many pictures that people have taken that have changed how I see the world. Um but you know, I I think that that's uh yeah, it's it's really difficult to pick one image. No, I can't do that. I can't. But there's certainly bodies of work that have been really important, like Maggie Steper's body of work from Haiti was is really profoundly moving. Um and um actually Maggie and Lynn Johnson shared a story in National Geographic a few years ago about uh a young girl who tried to commit suicide and literally like blew her face off, and then they were doing a face transplant. And oh my god, I and you know it takes a special kind of photographer to be able to tell such a gruesome story with such respect and love and dignity, and it was so beautiful and moving, and I don't know many people that could tell that story in such a way.

SPEAKER_02 30:05

Um, one moment. My cats are just going berserk. I need to open up.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

Oh my gosh. I understand that.

SPEAKER_02 30:14

They they have to feel uh involved.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

My cats do the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

There he is, the big fella.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

Oh, wait, hold him up again. Let me see that guy. Oh, sweetie. What are your cats' names?

SPEAKER_02 30:33

Uh that's Dwight. Dwight Schroot, if you're an office fan.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

Okay. Oh, yes, I am. That's great.

SPEAKER_02 30:40

Um So there is a lot of um again, it's sort of a reputation of the photojournalist or traveling photographer's life that it runs it creates a great conflict uh with family, friends, etc. Um, has this been something that's interrupted your life?

SPEAKER_00 31:04

For sure. Yes. Um, it is very hard to you have to have very understanding partners because you're gone a lot. And and I think also even when you come back, it takes some time to re-engage, you know. I mean, I think that you're so transformed by what you've experienced, and it's very hard for anybody to understand. And it takes me a while to even be able to talk about what I've just experienced, and I'm sure it's very similar for others involved in this career path. And it must be incredibly difficult for the people at home, you know, to feel so disconnected to you, and very often you don't have the ability, I mean, to speak every day, and um, you know, it's it's lonely, sometimes terrifying, um, and it's you know, it's a tough career path to choose for sure. And I I have so much respect for the partners on the other side who are understanding of us.

SPEAKER_02 32:26

How do you think about the risk then? Um as you uh have more commitments at home. Um how do you and when you were younger and when you had no commitments at home, I mean, how have you thought about risk throughout the years? What what is the line that you would not cross? Or is it almost this sense that if you see a good opportunity in front of you, the line always can just be pushed a little bit further, you know?

SPEAKER_00 32:54

Oh yeah, I mean, I actually think that when you are particularly, you know, as a conflict photographer, I think that you the lines get really blurry, and I think that in some way you can lose your sense of I mean, huh, it's that this is a slippery slope here, but I do think um you can go a little crazy. Um and and I don't know if it's crazy. I mean, I think it's crazy for the people at home, they they don't understand why you're doing this, why you're so driven. But um, but I don't, you know, I I think that it's very hard to relate when you're in it. And it's yeah, I mean, you just get so you get tunnel vision, you get, you know, you you you feel responsibility, an obligation to tell these stories. And you often are the only person telling these stories, and it is important to shine a light. You know, I would never want to diminish the importance of being out there and telling these stories because it does create change, and uh particularly when we're talking about, you know, human rights abuses and all of these, you know, the suffering in the world. I think journalism is critical, but it does take a toll on the people telling the stories and the people um and the relationships to the families that we yeah, I I don't know if I'm uh helping you, but I just think it takes a special kind of person to do it. You have to want it, and I think for a long time I didn't really, you know, I basically decided that I wasn't going to have a relationship. My job was my, you know, that was I just had to commit to it.

SPEAKER_02 34:56

Um the specifically on risk, I I wonder if you're comfortable giving an example that comes to mind where you were in a position and you said, okay, I will not cross this line because then the risk is too great. While then in the moment, you you know, like you said, tunnel vision. Is there any example that is top of mind that you're comfortable sharing that might really highlight that?

SPEAKER_00 35:23

Well, sure. I mean, I think in the beginning I did a lot of dangerous things where I almost died, and um, I think I it took a little experience to realize that no picture is worth your life. I'm very lucky to be here, and I I think I grew more sensible and really also realizing that I wasn't just endangering my own life, but probably the people that were with me on the ground too. And so I also believe that for me personally, I decided that I wanted to tell stories that were not necessarily just the violence and the you know the conflict itself. I I thought that those in the beginning were the images that I was asked to cover, get close to the action, bring back the dramatic images. I did that. And, you know, again, I'm very lucky to still be here because there were a lot of close calls. And you know, almost being inside a building, I should have been inside a building that was vaporized by a missile, and the only reason I wasn't inside the building is because all the batteries fell out of my camera while I was running to get inside of it, and and sort of realizing um slowly, slowly that actually to tell the story with depth, you don't only, you know, it's actually at best half the story, and at worst, maybe even a lie, if you're not giving a full, you know, a full picture of what is going on in all of these stories. And I don't think that it does justice to only bring back the violent sensationalistic images. I think that it doesn't help us understand the people and the story at all. In fact, it further polarizes people when that is our only way of seeing each other. Those are violent, you know, militant, terrorist versus like bringing back the stories that all of us can relate to, which show, you know, the humanity in every story. And so over time I began to realize I needed to give a much broader view of what the world really looks like. And it also kept me safer by doing that too.

SPEAKER_02 37:47

That that sort of what if moment where batteries fall out of your camera, which is first of all, you know, when does that ever happen, right? But it happens to happen to you before you um yeah, so it's a big what if. Uh how do those moments affect or how did that experience how does it change the way you see the world? I'm thinking of like a heavy for me, that those sort of experiences just reinforce this idea that there is way more randomness and luck at play in the universe than the sort of destiny path is set idea that might be more generally understood. Um so I'm sorry for a poorly worded question, but j those what if moments, experiencing them, thinking about them, how does it affect the way you see the world?

SPEAKER_00 38:42

Oh, when you almost die, it definitely stops you in your tracks. And you know, I I think that I've had a few of those experiences, and you sort of get through that moment, and and then it it's really painful, actually. It's very painful to sit with that and realize how ephemeral life is, and um I think that it's made me more thoughtful about every every step and action and choice that I make, and also given me a greater sense of urgency. Like, I mean, I am on a mission and I am trying to do so much because I realize how short this life is, and so you know, they when they at when they say, you know, get when you want something done, find the busiest person in the room, and that is exactly right. Like I am the busiest person because I just and it is because of all of those moments before this. I realize how short this life is, and that I'm very lucky to still be here, and I yeah, there's I don't want to waste one precious moment, not one.

SPEAKER_02 40:07

Amazing, and Amy, um we are we're running short on time, so forgive the uh abrupt transition away from what is a very interesting thread uh that I could speak about all day. But I'd like to ask maybe four or five questions that um are non-related to each other, but just things I really want to hear your response on. Um, and so how does that sound?

SPEAKER_00 40:34

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 40:35

Okay. A very specific uh advice. This is me for being very selfish right now. So um for me, some of the most haunting photos I've ever seen are the famine photos that Salgado took in the Sahel. And right now, we're supposedly in Somalia and in uh East Africa, they're going through the worst decade and something like three worst famine is something like three decades. I would love to go to this country and document it as best as I possibly could personally best as I could. It's extremely expensive to do so. Um please give me some advice. Uh how would you uh counsel a person um to do such a job?

SPEAKER_00 41:31

Well, I think first of all, I would uh uh ask you to explain like why that story, why do you want to go and cover that?

SPEAKER_02 41:42

Well, there's an interesting geopolitical um angle to it, but the honest truth, why do I really want to do it is just purely out of interest. I think it would I I think it's um it could be once in a lifetime um tragedy. And I guess there's a morbid way of describing it in this manner, but it's just it's a place I feel compelled to go and document.

SPEAKER_00 42:07

Well, I would say that I mean I'm a little critical of um the way we are taught to be journalists, because I actually think we need to lead with our heart a lot more. And I think that if you're going because you out of like a morbid sense of interest, um I I think it sounds terrible, but I'm being I'm just being honest. But I know you're being and you're not alone. I think there's plenty of people that just like basically chase conflict, chase tragedy. And I would say that there is something really um we as journalists need to re-evaluate the way we do this kind of storytelling because I think that there's such a lack of understanding of the complexities, and also there's no empathy and compassion, and um it is so it is so um exploitative in the way in which we've structured this business, and um, I find great, I find it really problematic to just parachute in to cover other people's suffering, and that rather I think it would be better to support the very capable journalists from these places who can tell these stories with nuance and empathy and understanding because what we do when we parachute into these places with no understanding is create, um, I would Say, like it's a colonial vision of the world, and look at these poor, you know, impoverished people, and it lacks dignity and respect. And I really am troubled by the way our societies have created this structure and the way we tell stories. Um, I'm really trying to dismantle this in the way I work and in the way that I am creating opportunities by giving grants for locals to tell stories. Because I, you know, if you want to tell that story, then go and live there for years. Don't parachute in. We do not need any more parachute journalism and photography. It just creates a lack of understanding and compassion in this world. That would be my advice as critical and and you know, I I'm not, don't take it personally because you're a lovely human being, but I do think we need to re-evaluate why we do things.

SPEAKER_02 45:00

There's a there's a strong theme of uh sort of skin in the game and what you're saying. I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of like, you know, how how exposed to the downside of your action really are you, or how equally exposed to the upside are you?

SPEAKER_00 45:15

And so It's actually like you're the one profiting from this, not the people. You're not going to help those people.

SPEAKER_02 45:21

Undoubtedly, undoubtedly. And there's a part of you that thinks, like, well, by um presenting to the world this tragedy, money could be go there, or more interest would go there, or at least more attention would go there.

SPEAKER_00 45:35

I mean, but that's not true. Look at Haiti, you know, and those people are so sick of journalists coming in who only profit off of their suffering. Has any real change happened? Absolutely not. And to go and tell yourself that you're gonna create change is a myth.

SPEAKER_02 45:54

Is it on the journalists, though, to be then responsible for whether the change happens or not? So they can still go with the best intentions, like honest, true intentions, um, and and still be able to feel empathy and compassion and so forth. You know, they're not like soulless people.

SPEAKER_01 46:14

Um but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:16

I mean, it's a very complicated uh uh discussion with the case.

SPEAKER_00 46:19

It is, and I don't I mean, yeah, and like I said, I don't want to personalize it. I don't, I mean, I think everybody always goes for the best of intentions. But what I would like people to do is think more about the you know the the way in which we tell stories. And what I would suggest is find a story that um you know that that you can spend time on and go much more deeply with um, you know, to to really tell it with complexity and understanding because bringing back sensationalistic images, um, I don't think it is serving humanity. I really don't.

SPEAKER_02 47:00

Right. No, I mean, um, yeah. I almost feel like uh almost embarrassed uh to to to have to have brought it up so uh so abruptly.

SPEAKER_00 47:10

No, but I don't I don't think you should be embarrassed, and I think a lot of you know, I think that we um encourage this kind of storytelling and you know the way mainstream media works. It's like this is what we encourage, and I'm only trying to ask the questions how can we do it differently?

SPEAKER_02 47:30

Yeah, okay, rapid fire, a few more questions. Technical tips for photographers.

SPEAKER_00 47:37

Know your gear. And nice, you know, less is more. Honestly, if you're just if you're just heading out and trying to learn something um and bringing new gear, it's a big mistake. So just whatever you bring, um, make sure you know it well.

SPEAKER_02 47:56

You live in Montana. What do you think of Yellowstone?

SPEAKER_00 48:00

The television series?

SPEAKER_02 48:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

Um, I think it's entertainment and it is not real.

SPEAKER_02 48:10

But definitely, but uh maybe more broadly, how has Yellowstone changed in the way people think about Montana in America? And do you see that in your day-to-day?

SPEAKER_00 48:19

Well, I would say that we have a whole influx of people trying to move here now. And um it's it's impacting, you know. I think you can love something to death, and so the problem is that actually we need to take care of these habitats and protect them from development and make sure that our wild places stay wild. And this television show is having an impact because we're having huge development, and it's actually impacting the very thing that we came here because we love. You know, the wildlife is being impacted by all of this, you know, influx, and yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:07

What an amazing irony to that, because the whole sort of theme of the show is maintaining the wild of uh Montana.

SPEAKER_00 49:14

Exactly, exactly. And so that's you know, I think that's my one statement is we can love things to death.

SPEAKER_02 49:23

Finally, uh Amy, these are three questions that I ask every single guest. The first, what is the role that serendipity has played in your life?

SPEAKER_00 49:32

Sure. I mean, I you know, serendipity luck, um, but I actually think more than serendipity, it's all about relationships. And I think that nothing is serendipitous in a way if you have all these beautiful relationships, and everything that I've been able to create or experience is through building strong relationships.

SPEAKER_02 49:59

A country that you're particularly bullish on.

SPEAKER_00 50:03

I don't know, I can't see into the future in that way. I think that we are all connected intricately, that one nation is not separate from another, that we are all being impacted by climate change and and habitat loss and all of these issues. So I think that I don't look at so here's how I mean, I'll just give you my thinking on this. Sorry, I'm rambling. This is probably not what you wanted to hear, but I look at the moon as a musical metaphor a lot, and I look at the moon looking down on our planet, and there is a oneness, there are no borders, and we are in this beautiful, intricate web together. And if you don't understand that, um, that's okay, but I don't see one nation, you know. I I think that we're we've got to start seeing all of humanity without borders in a way. All of the existential issues are gonna impact all of us. Nobody's safe.

SPEAKER_02 51:10

But that being said, we still do have sovereign nations, borders, and unfortunately, the politics of particular countries uh affect the individuals living in there. So I just wonder, you're so extensively traveled. I just love to hear a country that you went to and you thought, wow, they have so much potential here.

SPEAKER_00 51:31

I I Bhutan and Costa Rica. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 51:35

I mean the Can you talk about Bhutan? I love my favorite photo of yours, by the way, was in Bhutan.

SPEAKER_00 51:42

Okay, so I mean, two countries that I think have have two countries that are doing things right, Bhutan and Costa Rica. Bhutan, uh, you know, they they're known for the same gross national happiness that they don't go by GDP, they go by gross national happiness. And the fact is they are really thinking ahead. They um, you know, no child goes without an education. Um they, you know, they value 60, it's in their constitution that their national parks can never be developed, and that I believe it's like 60% of the land must always remain undeveloped. That is so profound and progressive, and we should all be, you know, making sure that our habitat loss is a single biggest threat to humanity. We have to protect the forest, or we are all dead, truly. And so I love Bhutan for that reason, and it's the same reason I love Costa Rica. They do not have a military, they put all of their money into protecting the natural world. If every country could be thinking about that, honestly, we would have no need for military because this is everything is connected to the natural world. Everything, and I think these two countries have it right.

SPEAKER_02 53:10

Amen. And uh very happy to see Bhutan enter the list. It's about 130 interviews so far. That's the first entry for them. Um yeah, it it it seems to be, I've never been, but it seems to be just an incredibly beautiful and bountiful country. Um Finally, Amy, if you could witness a conversation between any two people of history, no language barrier, dead or alive, so a a podcast. Who are you listening to?

SPEAKER_00 53:41

Oh my gosh. Um That is hard. Oh, I love Albert Einstein. And what would he think about today's world and Putin? Albert Einstein and Putin. What would they talk about?

SPEAKER_02 54:04

What are they gonna talk about?

SPEAKER_00 54:06

No, actually, not let's not do that. Let's do Albert Einstein and who in today's world. Um yeah, I mean, maybe actually um Elon Musk and Albert Einstein. I think those I would love to see, because Albert Einstein really has such an empathy and one of those brilliant minds, but also an empathy that I would love to see how he would um how he would what he would talk about with Elon Musk would be fascinating to me.

SPEAKER_02 54:48

100%. I love that. That'd be brilliant. Well, Amy, I can't thank you enough for um doing this with me, and uh thank you so much for being so generous with your answers and as well uh with your time.

SPEAKER_00 55:02

Thank you, Ryan. I'm glad we could do it. It's so lovely to meet you. I hope our paths cross in person.

SPEAKER_02 55:09

Oh, a hundred percent. I I I very much hope so as well.