85: Harley Rustad | The Disappearance Of Justin Alexander & India As A Guru Destination

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The following is a conversation with Harley Rustad, the author of Lost In The Valley Of Death.

A story about the life and disappearance of Justin Alexander, a wonderfully inspiring traveller who shocked everyone in the know when he went missing in the Indian Himalayas in 2016.

Justin’s disappearance is shrouded in mystery, corruption and misfortune and in the end, it looks like Justin rolled the dice just one too many times.

In This Podcast With Harley Rustad, You Can Expect To Hear About…

• Justin Alexander As A Bloke.
• Gurus & The Spiritual Nature Of India.
• Sadhus.
• India Syndrome.
• Appearing With Chris Ryan & Rolf Potts.
• The Meta Theme Of Adventure.

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• 00:00 – Introduction
• 02:47 – What Type Of A Bloke Was Justin Alexander?
• 22:00 – India As A Spiritual Destination.
• 39:49 – Gurus & The Spiritual Characters Of India.
• 55:47 – Justin’s Search For Spirituality & His Relationship With A Sadhu.
• 1:07:09 – The Value Of Trust In Travel.
• 1:13:32 – Justin Goes Missing & The Sadhu Returns.
• 1:20:01 – Disappearances In The Parvati Valley & India Syndrome.
• 1:35:52 – Appearing On The Chris Ryan & Rolf Potts Podcast.
• 1:39:44 – A Moment You Can’t Believe You Were A Part Of.
• 1:42:17 – A Country You A Bullish On?
• 1:44:47 – Conversation Between Any Two People Of History.
• 1:51:11 – Afterthoughts & Ambition For The Podcast.

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Episodes Of The Curious Worldview Podcast Similar To This!

• Prashant Kidambi | Cricket In India
• Bryan Bashin | A Of The Great Travellers In History
• Tim Butcher | An Incredible Modern Day Adventure Across The Congo

Links To Harley Rustad

• Harley’s Website

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

The following is a conversation with Harley Rustad, who is the author of Lost in the Valley of Death, which is both a subject of this podcast and as well a story about the life and disappearance of Justin Alexander, who is a wonderfully inspiring character who shocked everyone when he went missing in the Indian Himalayas at thirty five years old, just a few years ago in two thousand and sixteen. Justin Alexander, who is the subject of Harley's book, is a true Vagabond's Vagabond. Born in the early eighties in Florida, raised by a single mother, by the time Justin disappeared at 35 years old, he had experienced more life than most can claim in generations. He toured internationally as a rock star, traveled the world as a high-flying corporate businessman, was an extremely accomplished outdoorsman, and as well carved himself out as one of the original travel influencers on Instagram. Justin's disappearance is shrouded in mystery, corruption, and misfortune. I find Justin an incredibly interesting figure, and hopefully this is not too cliche to say, but as well an inspiring one. I obviously never knew Justin. But having read Harley's book, I felt like I really understood him when it came to this anxiety about growing old and not having experienced every possible thing that the world makes available to us. The constant sprint away from responsibility and the romantic ideal that the answer you're looking for just lies over there, over the hill, in one more hike away from society. In the end, it looks like Justin just rolled the dice one too many times. He disappeared in 2016 under very suspicious circumstances in India's high Himalayas. Pali and I spend much of the time in this podcast speaking not only about Justin's story specifically, but as well India as a spiritual destination. Since a huge part of this story is the myriad disappearances of Western tourists in India's Pavity Valley as well as other places throughout India. There is a magical and mystical nature to India, and it attracts the most extreme types of tourism and travel, making it such a fascinating case study of fringe behaviour. Harley and I together we speak about what kind of a bloke Justin was, gurus and the spiritual nature of India, sadhus, India syndrome, appearing on the Chris Ryan and Rolf Potts podcast, and as well, I hope you'll agree, a general metatheme of the virtues of adventure. So thank you again, Harley, for the chat. It really was an immense pleasure to do this with you. And the book once more, Lost in the Valley of Death, the author, the voice you hear in this podcast, Harley Rustad. And here is the conversation. Harley, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining us, mate.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Thanks so much for having me.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

Really, it's my pleasure. To start off, I want to get a sense for the type of bloke that Justin was. And so can you talk about this real or slash fictional character that he looked up to as a boy, the stalking wolf, and how this might give a really good explanation as to the type of person Justin was?

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Sure. So Justin was born in Florida in the early 80s and uh had sort of a slightly tumultuous uh upbringing. His parents divorced when he was quite young and was raised largely by by his mom, who who took him across the country to the West Coast of the US. And quite quickly he realized that high school was not quite his path, or was how he was really resonating and connecting uh with people and was feeling inspired. And so his mom withdrew him from high school and entered him into these wilderness schools, uh, which there's this long history in the US of these academies, uh, quite formal ones on the West Coast and on the East Coast, with these legendary figures who train you know young kids but also uh adults in wilderness survival, tracking, nature awareness, this whole philosophy, there's a spiritual element to it, and it's really rooted in Native American uh traditions. And there's this one figure uh written about by one of these legendary teachers named Tom Brown Jr., and that figure is called Stalking Wolf. And he was Tom's written about him a ton in a bunch of different books, and he became this kind of mythical figure, and a lot of people aren't even certain whether or not he existed or whether or not he's a bit of a composite in Tom Brown Jr.'s mind. But he was used as this archetype for for teaching young kids uh and adults how to how to be closer to the earth, how to track animals. And and Justin idolized him. He was one of those first, you know, as a young kid, you have got a lot of people you look up to, and and Justin was particularly fascinated by by Stalking Wolf. And as somebody who had such confidence in nature, had such a such skills to to you know follow a path, but also to start fires and build shelters, um, but more deeply had this really spiritual uh connection to nature and to the earth. And it was something that Justin revered and and I think in a lot of ways wanted to live his life by.

SPEAKER_02 5:32

Yeah, it's uh also really foreshadowed uh the trajectory of his life, especially how it sort of ended up. Like he was a real outdoorsman, wasn't he? Extremely qualified to live in the wild.

SPEAKER_00 5:45

He was, and he he wasn't somebody who who kind of dabbled in this world, he was somebody who who really threw himself into it. And that's also kind of a theme throughout Justin's life, is he did things to their extremes. He pushed himself, but also was devoted to whatever uh job he had or whatever uh calling he he felt. And and when he was placed in these these situations uh in the wild, he was absolutely comfortable. He was he was somebody who was known to be able to start a fire, you know, essentially by rubbing two sticks together in you know in faster than you could than you could with a with a lighter and matches. And and but also was known as someone who kind of took on these quite daring feats in the wild, uh, you know, running for for miles and miles while holding a uh a gulp of water in your mouth without swallowing. Or teaching himself how to climb a tree and fall out of it safely. So you're grabbing branches as you fall, like it's something out of the movie Avatar. And he had these skills and he developed them and he he practiced them and was absolutely somebody who was not naive or not incompetent uh when put into you know solitary or challenging situations uh in the wild.

SPEAKER_02 7:10

You know how it was later sort of revealed that maybe a lot of his online persona was rather embellished and his stories were embellished as well. Do you think also this idea of him running miles with a gulp of water in his mouth is also something that gets embellished over time, much like Stalking Wolf is himself a very embellished character, perhaps too real to for reality?

SPEAKER_00 7:33

It was something that I thought a lot about in researching and reporting this book, because what is presented online is never 100% truthful. Uh we always, I do it, uh I think everybody, you know, presents a certain image of how they want to be seen, whether that's on Twitter or Instagram or Facebook or what have you. And it's always curated, it's always slightly more glistening and slightly more positive. And and so as a as a reporter, as somebody who is ultimately trying to recreate this life uh in a truthful and accurate way, it presented a lot of challenges because I knew that everything Justin posted, I had to, in some way, question, I had to interrogate, and I had to investigate. And at times I uncovered discrepancies in the truth. And there were definitely times, and I mentioned a couple of these in the book, where Justin went on this grand adventure or trip, and what he shared online of how that trip went or what that trip ended up being was quite different than when I tracked down the person that he had gone with when he had said it had been a solo journey, uh, or knew that he had to buy permits to enter into this one region when he said he had kind of snuck in and and was presented as kind of this grand uh adventurous uh expedition. And so there were a lot of moments uh throughout this, and social media ended up being this incredible research tool because there were posts and photographs and videos, timestamps, and people tagged in the photos that I could then I could then question and and and uh interview. But it also presented this really great challenge of of trying to navigate through what what is truth and what is embellishment or what is or what is potentially outright fiction with what he posted online. And in some ways it made a more interesting story for for me uh in the end.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

A more real person.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

A more real person and a lot more relatable person, but also but also kind of raised these, I think, very current issues that a lot of people are struggling with or at least navigating, is you know, where is the truth in in our life? Is it this person that we we present to the world in our work or in in our play and in our social media and however we present ourselves to the world, is that a truthful rec uh representation and portrait of who we are in our hearts? And what happens when it's not? What happens when when it becomes something bigger than ourselves? And for Justin, you know, the the latter kind of three or four years of his life built up this really quite sizable social media following in almost like this train that was getting away from him, and he was sort of stuck on it and not sure about where it was taking him. And so it raised all these really interesting questions that that um I think kind of updated this classic adventure, adventure kind of gone-wrong story uh for for a modern audience.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

Did you uh end up getting access to his blog and things that he had written before it expired?

SPEAKER_00 10:57

Yeah, so there's a lot of there's a lot of kind of tools that uh journalists can use. Uh there's there's one called the Wayback Machine, the Internet Archive, and you can essentially plug in any URL, and the Internet Archive takes uh date stamps, so essentially just like screenshots the page and archives it, and so I could go back and find every blog post that he he made and when he uploaded it. It's a great tool.

SPEAKER_02 11:23

Uh, but there was also I didn't know that it was that effective.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

It's really great. And so uh even if web pages have been taken down, you can still access certain information, you can even download documents and all sorts of stuff. It's a it's a really incredible resource. But you know, he had written for different travel blogs, he had been interviewed for travel podcasts, and and had this really profound and consistent social media presence. So there was this this treasure trove of information for me to to follow and dig into and cross-reference and establish timelines and and a huge amount of information, and also to to hear his voice, um, you know, not only in a Q ⁇ A on the page, but also in a podcast, which was a really which was a really kind of powerful experience for for somebody who's who is you know no longer with us and presumed dead, is to hear his voice and to hear him talk about certain things uh was quite a rare thing and and and was quite a powerful thing to to listen to and to go through.

SPEAKER_02 12:33

So Justin has uh had his development years in these sort of outdoor academies, these academies of the wild. He uh, like you said, could create a fire with two uh sticks quicker than someone could with a lighter. He was a true outdoorsman, a real wild guy, uh very adventurous guy, but also an extremely competent person. He seemed to excel in absolutely everything that he did. So can you take us back to uh maybe I guess the end of his adolescence and then the years that fulfill before ultimately he gets to the sort of cliche that all all adventurous travel roads lead to India? Uh can you fill in the gaps between then and then?

SPEAKER_00 13:23

So he he was a bit of a chameleon. He uh was one of these people who uh uh constantly changed his skin uh to sort of almost kind of test his personality and test his interests to see if that was something that was ultimately truly fulfilling him and a path that he he really wanted to walk down. And so after uh spending quite a few years uh uh training at the tracker school, which is this legendary academy in New Jersey, he does something very different. He moves across the country to San Francisco and starts working at a essentially kind of a youth academy uh mentorship program that's attached to to some secondary schools, and worked with kids, which is something that was this kind of through arc throughout his life, uh, mentoring young kids, but also uh entered and and fronted a punk rock band for for about six years. And that was a complete departure from who he was, you know, on stage. You know, he had gone from this kind of you know, isolated, solitary boy in the wilds of Washington State and New Jersey to standing on on stages in San Francisco, and they did quite well. They were they were well known in the Bay Area, they toured Japan, and and you could see this person kind of blossoming on stage in confidence, but also recognizing that this spotlight, um, both the good and the bad that can come with that. And then was presented with this opportunity in another one of these grand transformations, uh, quite quickly quits his job and the band kind of falls apart, and he moves uh back to Miami to Florida. Uh, sorry, back to Florida to Miami, where he becomes the traveling face of this tech startup and is very, very successful. Uh, travels all around the world, uh, you know, staying in fancy hotels and eating in Michelin-starred restaurants and kind of living this high life, you know, has an apartment uh in in Miami and you know, kind of enters into this quite lavish lifestyle that was another complete departure from from who he was. And I think a lot of people who knew him were quite surprised by it. But it afforded him this opportunity to travel the world. And he had gotten a taste for it when he was in San Francisco. He had traveled to Nepal and to Thailand and had these big trips that really influenced him and his spirituality and this desire to the itchy feat that I think a lot of people can connect with. Uh, he got that first taste when he was based out of San Francisco. And so he works in Miami at this tech startup for for three years and builds up this nest egg that ultimately allows him to quit his job and and embark on this essentially indefinite life on the road. Again, kind of this classic break-free that I think a lot of uh a lot of people in in similar situations have have entered, those gates that they've approached to and stepped, stepped through, is this dissatisfaction with your your path that you're on, but also having this privilege, this this opportunity to see if an indefinite life on the road was something that was going to satisfy him. And so he gives away his belongings, he you know, gives up his apartment, he has a motorcycle and a backpack, and he begins uh traveling around the US uh by motorcycle. And he does that for a few times. You know, this is this is kind of where the story starts to pick up, and and he travels down to South America for a few months and and then ultimately leaves everything and goes on this this international trip to uh the Pacific Islands in the Philippines, to Thailand, uh back to Nepal, and then ultimately his first trip to India, um, which is where you know the book begins is in India, and it's where where the book ends is is back in India. And so he, you know, he truly was one of these people who constantly was reinventing himself and constantly testing different opportunities that he was afforded to see what could be found uh in those opportunities and ultimately realized that that what he what truly satisfied him was was traveling, was exploring, was meeting new people, was that kind of cultural exchange that I think a lot of people who've you know traveled anywhere can really appreciate. Um but it's also a a trip that is often without end. Um you can be searching for a very, very long time for that kind of that kind of pinnacle, that kind of moment that puts your life into context. And uh and India is where you know where the story culminates.

SPEAKER_02 18:41

He was uh 35 when he went missing, right? Yeah. Uh how old was he when he set foot in India?

SPEAKER_00 18:48

He was 35, so he Okay, so it all happened within a year.

SPEAKER_02 18:53

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

So he left in in kind of January of 2016 on this international trip and and uh crossed over into India in in June of that year, and you know, arrived in that country. I've spent a couple years in India and as a traveler and as a journalist, and and you see these people landing, and you know, they've got a couple weeks and they want to go to the Taj Mahal, and they want to go and you know do a desert safari in Rajasthan and see those beautiful forts, and they want to go to you know stay in an ashram or have kind of have that experience, go to these incredible markets and and you know, kind of stay in this in this bubble. And Justin arrived uh not to do those classic things. He arrived to with a very determined plan in his mind, and that was to buy another motorcycle, a royal enfield, which is you know this classic mount uh mountain motorcycle of the Himalayas, where pretty much everybody knows how to repair them, uh, to buy a motorcycle and to drive to the Himalayas. And very early on, yeah, and and in some ways a classic trip, but you know, he always had his ability to push it a bit further than anybody else. And you know, very early on had this um this goal in his mind. And I and I spoke with somebody who he met uh in the first couple weeks after arriving in India, and you know, she had taken notes in her journal about meeting Justin and how even then he had this goal of going to the mountains, finding a cave, and testing himself in a very extreme environment, and and kind of cutting himself off from you know technology and social media and his phone, even though it enabled him um you know to have a break from that. And I thought that was very telling that that he was always somebody that lived with this intention and had the ability and the dedication to see it through. And you know, ultimately he rides his motorcycle into this place called the Parvati Valley, which is this very small sliver of Himalayan India. Just staggeringly beautiful, intimate, you know, close encounters with some of the biggest mountains in the world, you know, pilgrimage destination, temples around every corner, these holy hot springs, um, you know, and and just this really beautiful, beautiful place that has attracted travelers and tourists and backpackers for for generations, and you know, had this really determined goal to go as far as he could within that valley and to find a cave to to live in. And uh, you know, you know, there's a lot of people that may go to India that want to have a solitary, you know, mountain moment, um, but very few who would go and spend nearly a month living in a cave in the mountains testing themselves. And that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Although the few out there among us in the global population who are inclined for that type of extreme vagabonding, it's like extreme uh interest in the in the in finding the spiritual self or some sort of enlightenment, all roads lead to India. That's where they'll end up, you know, like a cliche, inadvertently going. And any of us who have spent a bit of time in Asia have come across these types. Um, and I I wanted to bring up an anecdote with you, whether it was off air or later, um, but about this uh old German hippie who I became friends with who was looking for the rainbow people. And at the time I thought it was just he he was just like he explained it to me, and I thought this is the most fringe thing ever. I I, you know, I've never heard of it. But then I saw in your book that this exact same festival was happening up in the Poverty Valley, and uh and it validated it for me. It's like, hey, this guy wasn't nuts. There was genuinely some like secret community that had super strict um rules about communication so it didn't become this sort of uh so it didn't get access to people that weren't legit. Um anyway, um so and and you're right.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

I mean India India for for centuries has been this beacon for spiritual travelers, and you know, all the way back to you know the impressions that Marco Polo left of India, and it's all kind of rooted in in part reality, but in part a fabrication of people's minds in in the West of what India is as this kind of magical holy destination where if you go there and find your tree or your mountain, you will achieve enlightenment. And in some ways, it's true. I mean, I had as someone who is not religious, didn't grow up with any spiritual background, had these incredibly profound moments in that country uh that are hard to explain and hard to kind of get my head around. And I know I'm not the only one who felt that that way about that that corner of the world. Um so many people, and I think that's the that's what people hold in their minds, is they read these books, um, they hear these stories, they think that they can have a similar experience there. And India is is you know, I would argue, unique in the world in that place that it occupies in people's minds. And and has been this, you know, like a call of sirens for people who are who want to explore their their spiritual path. And and India has innumerable paths for you to walk down, whether it leads you to you know a remote mountain valley or to you know to the feet of a guru, into an ashram, to into temples of you know, in any number of denominations and experiences. And I think that's what's so attractive to a lot of people is that they feel like they can they can find their path there and they can have their experience, whether it is a Buddha-like enlightening moment or whether it is something smaller. And you know, for me, I went there first as a you know post-university graduate, didn't know what I wanted to do with my life, so I'll go to India for a year and just backpack around. And it was then when I really started writing. It was then, you know, and it was all kind of personal stuff, but it it was it was during that trip that I look back on as being incredibly formative and and transformative for for my my experience and how I um you know eventually ended up on the path that I'm on right now. And I think that that lure uh of India as being this place that can help you, can answer the questions that you've you've long held in your mind and in your heart uh is is a perennial one, and it's one that's not that's not going away. It's existed for centuries and through the hippie trail years and all the way up to this new enormous wave of tourists that has been going to India in the in the past decade, decade, and you know, a couple decades. And you know, whether that that promise is real or whether it's built up in our minds is is almost irrelevant because the lure will always be there and that draw will is will always be so strong of the promise of a of an experience. And and I think it's it's brought a lot of people there, and I think ultimately it it brought Justin there as well.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

I'm glad that you've introduced this whole angle of India, which like I said to you, off air for me was the most fascinating part of the book. So I'm hoping we could park Justin's story to the side for one moment because we've uh very briefly obviously people need to read the book uh to get the full story, but very briefly, his upbringing, his influences uh of the wild, the um yeah, influence of the wild, being an international rock star, being uh a bit of an international corporate guy, he's had a lot of different experiences, he left this incredible impression on almost everyone he met. You know, he was likely the most charismatic guy in most rooms he was in for his entire life. Now he's at India, he's looking for spirituality. Uh though you can also say that he's also running from commitment because he's he's he knows that there's so much more potential in him and he wants to get as much experience as he possibly can because maybe he sees all the people around him, his own age, they're starting to settle down. Like a classic uh sort of a classic experience so many men and women get to in their late 20s, right? You know, and again it's like the cliche you'll meet in Asia of that age traveling abroad. Um, but Justin was sort of an extra level because he was so charismatic. But anyway, I think we've done justice explaining who he was to this point. So if we could park him aside and then speak more about India. Um can you introduce us the general geography? Introduce us to India. What is this country? The differences in the religions, differences in culture, the size of it, big population centers, the tourism, if if possible.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

Yeah, it's that's a it's a that's a big question, and it's a tough one to answer because it's it's a place that um is sort of hard to define. It's hard to make any kind of broad sweeping uh conclusion or comment on what India is because it is so big. Um, you know, there are these kind of epic train rides that can take you uh, you know, seven, eight, nine days to get across the country. Um so it geographically it's enormous, um, but it's also culturally um very, very diverse. So it, you know, I I often kind of compared it to a bit like traveling through Western Europe. You know, you cross over the border from Germany into France, and there's a new language, there's you know, new food that you're being introduced to, there's new culture, new customs, all sorts of things. And and crossing over just within India between states is often a bit like that experience where the food changes, the there's new dialects and and new languages, and you know, the dominant religion is very different. And yeah, I mean, yeah, and and so if you go up to you know, down south uh is just very, very, very different from the Northeast, which has a lot of kind of Southeast Asian and and um you know Tibetan influences, and the very north of India is you know, it's there's a there's a region up there that some people have said is you know kind of more like Tibet than Tibet actually is because of the influences that Tibet has gone through, and because some of the Tibetan culture has been it's been easier to preserve it. Yeah, and it's been easier to preserve it in in India. Um it's just it is, you know, anybody who can tell you, you know, traveling to India is going to be like this, um, is just wrong. Is just straight up, you know, is just straight up, it it's gonna lead you to disappointment and uh and to, you know, to be frank in accuracy, because it is so hard to to define it as something. And in some ways that what's makes it so attractive for for travelers and for tourists to to go there is because you don't really know what this experience is gonna be like. I think people who go to France or um you know come to Canada or go to Australia kind of have an idea of what the, even though Canada is enormous, kind of have an idea of what it's gonna be like. And um India can be very challenging for a lot of people. And you know, I I've met a lot of people who've gone there who um you kind of get these polar extremes. You get people who absolutely love it or who absolutely hate it, and you know, people who get caught up in in the movement and uh and the things that it can offer you, or the people who just it just does not connect with them, and and you know, both of them are totally fine. But you know, it it has these in this, you know, as diverse as it is, it also has these enormous discrepancies in population and in socioeconomic status. So, you know, you the experience of going to Delhi, for example, or Mumbai or or Kolkata is very, very different than going up into the Himalayas uh to these remote villages. You know, you're talking about a city that essentially has half the population of Canada packed into this one area. It is so dense of people. Um you know, the whole kind of notion of personal space just is, you know, it's tough to find in a you know a city of of you know millions and millions and millions. And so again, to to say India is crowded or um you know all of these kind of stereotypes only apply to a certain part of the part of the country. And and so it has in, you know, I've always kind of thought of it that it has something for everyone. Uh if you are into you know cities and markets and it has that in spades, if if you want to go hiking, it's got the most incredible hiking in the world. Um, you know, if you want spirituality, it's got every possible path you could walk down, um Buddhist and Jain and Hindu and Muslim and Zoroastrian and everything, Christian. And you know, if you want crowds and if you want solitude, if you want, you know, the best food in the world and some stuff that's gonna make your stomach turn, it's got everything. It has absolutely everything. So it's a really tough question to answer because it's it's indefinable and it is so diverse that in some ways that makes it a challenge for some people to go and and try to make sense of and try to walk through. But I think in a lot of ways that's also what makes it so alluring is uh it's kind of quite unique place. I think it occupies not only in our minds, but you know, when we set foot there. Um it's it's uh it's compelling and captivating and challenging um you know every single day.

SPEAKER_02 34:09

Terrific answer. Uh the the reason I wanted to ask is just because we we have this impression of India and many other countries as well, but we're using India as an example as being there's an Indian guy, they like cricket and they like hot food. And you know, the truth of the matter is like it's way more complex than that. I'm gonna interview a guy soon called um Karashant Prashant, and he wrote a book called Cricket Country, which almost explains how nothing else in their entire ethnic history, including the English, could unify India. No one wanted to be an Indian. They all had their own uh individual ethnic identities except cricket, and uh that's gone on to be obviously what it is. You would have seen while you were there, I'm sure in the States or Canada you never gave a shit about cricket, but you go there, you have to give a crap. Um I wonder about Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka. I don't hear the same spiritual language and anecdotes coming out of these countries, although they are so close by ethnically. I know we just said that they're very different ethnically, but I mean compared to China or across the border in the Himalayas, you know, there's more Is there a spiritual aspect to these countries as well that you know of, or is it really all centered in India?

SPEAKER_00 35:34

I mean, absolutely, there's uh you know enormous spiritual elements in in Pakistan and Sri Lanka and Bangladesh and some you know hugely significant pilgrimage destinations in Sri Lanka and Pakistan, and um so you know, absolutely that exists as this as this current current um of everyday life in all of these countries. But I think India, because of its history, you know, it was the place, wasn't called India then, but it was the place where the Buddha achieved enlightenment. It was the place where Mahavira, this Jain um Buddha-like figure for the Jain religion, um, had a very similar path and a very similar story. It is the country that produced gurus and yogis in spades who not only had their temples in India, but also traveled around the world and spread these notions uh to people in the United States or in Australia or in Europe or in Canada. And so I think I think there is something slightly different with India just purely based on its history and and the people who have gone there uh for those specific, um, those specific reasons. And in a way, it's kind of compounded, you know, it had those kind of original foundational stories, but a lot of the Westerners who traveled there through the 20th century, particularly around the middle of the 20th century, um, played a role in building this place up, uh building this country up specifically more than any other as this destination. And you know, you saw that in the 60s with the hippie trail, this you know, legendary thoroughfare that um that uh went from you know essentially Turkey, Western uh from Europe, overland through the Middle East, uh, with the ultimate destination being being India and Nepal in some cases. Um what a decade time to be traveling. Incredible. I mean, an incredible, an incredible journey to even even think about right now going overland through you know through the Middle East and and into India. Um yeah, and it it so you know, and then we had this this wave of people who were who heard those stories and and flew there. So people, you know, like Steve Jobs, I kind of mentioned him in a couple paragraphs in the book as being one of these big figures who had an incredibly formative experience in India that led him onto the path that he ultimately lived. Um and it was people like him and and the Beatles who went, you know, went there in '68 and and up in Rishikesh and and you know had their guru who they followed there and wrote you know songs that ultimately ended up being the White Album in these incredible meditation pods up in the hills. All of these figures helped um helped kind of exaggerate, helped um build up this notion that India is is the destination for for those types of people. And so in some way it is rooted in India's history as being this place that you know everybody wanted to go. Um, this place of not only incredible, you know, riches and and spices and jewels and all those kind of tangible things, but something much more intangible uh that you know was in the minds of the British East India Company people who went there, was in the minds of you know the Mughals when they came and took over. Um was this place that you know has a lot that you can take, but has a lot to give you that is that is intangible. And you know, so I think it's it's in part rooted in that history, but also in part rooted in the influence that travelers had on that country um in the minds of people who followed. Um and so in some ways I do think that that sets India apart.

SPEAKER_02 39:48

What is it about gurus? Were you ever seduced by them when you were in India? You mentioned that you had quite a profound spiritual experience. For me, the the temptation of them it goes over my head. I just don't know what it is.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

I think I can understand the temptation of a a teacher, uh a guide, a you know, father or mother figure for somebody who in their life may have had an absence of those types of things.

SPEAKER_02 40:26

Projection of the father figure is famously susceptible to young men. That's the popularity of Jordan Peterson right there, you know.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

Right, yeah, but but still, yeah. Different conversation, yeah. Yeah, um for sure. And but it but those types of things, um I do I do understand uh that desire to find somebody who has a knowledge that I do not have or has a way of seeing the world that I do not possess, and to sit at their feet and have a conversation uh about those things, and to and to may not have an enlightening, you know, clouds parting moment, but may come away with it looking at the world a bit a bit different. And so in those ways I can I can totally understand people who who go there and meet somebody who not only has a knowledge or a perspective, but who also has a devotion that I think a lot of people um lack or or or don't have, which is often, and particularly when we're talking about you know, an Indian sadhu, for example, uh these Hindu holy men have this dedication to what they believe in that I think at least, you know, and I don't want to generalize too much, but at least in kind of my fragmented and disassociated uh life, um, being pulled in all these different directions, somebody who has given up everything and set foot onto one path with the ultimate uh goal of achieving enlightenment or achieving moksha um is an is an incredible, admirable, and in some ways enviable kind of devotion, singular devotion to life.

SPEAKER_02 42:12

And I think there's people a romantic ideal for sure.

SPEAKER_00 42:15

Absolutely, and I think there's people who see that and get sucked into that and want that. And so even though I never really had a moment where I felt like I was being pulled into something, into a relationship I didn't want, or into an experience I felt might be dangerous, or um physically, or even just sort of emotionally, I I get the lure of them. I get the the willingness to travel around the world um and trek to a mountaintop to meet somebody who can tell you which way to walk on. And to me, that's something that that you know, and I had I had moments in India, you know, to be honest, where I met people who I felt they had this incredibly compelling energy and this incredibly, and particularly as someone, you know, who is either wanting to get into journalism or was in journalism, I just wanted to sit and ask questions. I just wanted to hear their story and to hear uh what path brought them to that point and and and just sort of this deep fascination with people's lives and their stories. Um I think that that was kind of how I got sucked into to certain experiences. And but the overall draw I I do understand. Um I I do get that.

SPEAKER_02 43:47

I'm happy you brought up sadhus because I think if we can if you can introduce me and the audience to sadhus, hippie hill, and then a little bit more on the Pavati Valley. then we'll rejoin Justin uh in that part of the story.

unknown 44:07

Right.

SPEAKER_00 44:07

So Sadhus are these Hindu holy men, sadvis a female, um who have entered onto this very austere um ascetic path where they've you know often given up their previous lives, they've renounced their belongings and they uh essentially embark on a long journey. Some of them are quite sedentary, so they find their place and they stay within a town or a village or a temple. And often you find them walking across the country or um you know taking a train or whatever but uh but in in kind of in movement traveling to to ultimately find this this pinnacle it's their entire lives um are sort of devoted to achieving achieving moksha the the the the high state of enlightenment and you know so they often you know again to kind of generalize because there's all sorts of different um different kind of factions that they can belong to different sects that they belong to and they look quite different but often you know you'll see them not wearing a lot of clothing with matted hair uh like dreadlocks um and you know for the for those that idolize Shiva there's sort of uh which is the the one third of the Hindu Traveler at one of the most important gods in the Hindu pantheon um who is this kind of classic uh master of meditation and yoga um you know friend of animals this the the great transformer of the world um they they sort of dress in his image and walk in walk in his shoes and and so they they've also become these faces of spiritual India so you'll see them on the cover of National Geographic magazine and encountering them now in India is a very different experience than you know 100 years ago or even 50 years ago because some of them have seen that their image has now been presented and sold to the world and they want something out for that experience. They want something for that interaction with the tourist and so often you will pay to receive a blessing or you'll pay to be in their experience or even to take their photograph. And so it's created this really interesting relationship between these highly spiritual people that tourists want to go and have an experience with but also they want that experience to be pure and honest and not one where they're paying for that experience or paying for the photograph. So it creates this kind of tension between these two groups of people and Hippie Hill was this really incredible destination in the 60s and 70s that attracted uh a lot of foreigners um to to kind of create this this um counterculture outpost in the Himalayas and so it attracted um you know musicians and free thinkers and artists to you know live in caves and live in in these in in temples um to yeah to create this really fascinating uh this really fascinating cluster of of spiritual seekers in in the in the mountains um through those years and there was a there were a number around around the country during the hippie trail years but but hippie hill um uh also known as cranks ridge um was was one that was was really popular and and but places like the Parvity Valley were um you know which is kind of a not far from from Rishikesh but a bit kind of further north up the up the curve of of the Himalayas.

SPEAKER_02 48:01

And and also for the listener it's kind of right tucked up in that chimney ish corner of India right if you look on a map without borders you'd think they're in in China or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 48:15

It's it's way up it's heading in that direction it's it's up north you know it takes about a full day by bus from Delhi to kind of get to the the beginnings of the of the valley and and it was a place that was known in the hippie trail years in the 60s and 70s and 80s largely because it of it produced some of the best hash in on the subcontinent and so it attracted you know drug tourists there for for a long long time and but it also was this this deeply had you know these incredibly deep roots in Hinduism where a place where Shiva is said to have meditated for 3000 years he named the the valley after his wife Parvati um so the valley is named after his wife the river that runs through its heart is named after his wife incredibly uh important uh place among all of these little valleys uh that that slice into the Himalayas that slice into the mountains and so it attracted you know people who were looking for an escape looking for obviously people who were you know curious about about hash but also people who really wanted an isolated mountain experience um a place that for a long time has been free of influence from the Indian government uh free of regulation you know people who don't want to register online um when they check into a guest house people who want to kind of step away from the world for a little bit um you know there are places where there's zero cell reception and you know Wi-Fi is only a very very recent thing and and people are drawn to it for those reasons um to get away from the cosmopolitan India you know the crowds and and and those aspects and to find something that is um there's a word in in in Hindi called shanti which is just peace and tranquility and I think you know a place like that really embodies embodies that it's it's quiet it's relaxing um by comparison and it gives you a moment to stare at the mountains and to sit in a temple or in these holy hot springs and to think about life um and to meet other you know similarly minded people um so it's got these really interesting contrasts this this one place and it's you know out of all the places I've traveled to around the world it is one of the most beautiful I've ever seen man it looks unbelievable I had to stop uh reading and look up on Google Maps this place um and then I just thought what a what an ideal idealized romantic sort of place to go you know spiritual or not hash or not uh it just looks like a just a remarkable place to go and and I encourage anyone listening to also Google it and have a look because it it doesn't look like Bombay it doesn't look like Mumbai doesn't look like Rajasthan as you say you know it could be a whole nother country entirely um I think one point before we return to Justin is to underline the point on the Sadhus that they whilst traditionally might be uh authentic ascetic people seeking enlightenment because there has been a trade come around it uh you know incentives sort of rule the world so there's a market now to be a sadhu almost it's very vulnerable to frauds um so could you just double down on that point house now some sadhus will ask for money just to be with them it doesn't feel very authentic no and that's something that I think a lot of people who are going to this part of the world um hoping to meet a guru or to meet a sadhu and to have that kind of relationship or that kind of experience want it to be truthful and authentic and true um and honest and you know when you meet somebody and you feel like you have a genuine connection with them and the interaction is going great and then they're saying well give me money for this it doesn't feel as genuine and you know and I don't fault these people by any means for wanting because for you know years and decades people were coming and and taking from them whether it was an experience or as I said in in a photograph um taking from them and not necessarily giving much in return. And so I don't fault them for wanting to say like you know give me a hundred rupees for that photograph because I'm I'm posing for you or whatever. But it creates this tension you know between that relationship of you know the the teacher and the student that can be fraught and can end up quite complicated and in some ways um in some ways kind of treacherous and and so a lot of these some of these sadus who have who may not be on a genuine spiritual path um have kind of been given the nickname a business baba and baba is this kind of honorific meaning father um but a business baba somebody who isn't on a a genuine spiritual path um but is somebody who realizes that the image and the costume and what they can offer to tourists is is worth something and and so you know ultimately when I look back at all of the different sadhus and and holy people I met there were absolutely some who saw me as a paying customer rather than than you know somebody passing by and who they wanted to talk to and so it it inevitably creates these these problematic situations where the student the traveler wants something out of this experience is often quite desperate in that desire and the teacher is totally willing to give that as long as the student pays for it and that can create this this yeah quite quite treacherous quite dangerous you know at an extreme but also just like very uncomfortable and problematic relationship that you know at times has led to confrontation and has led to you know argument and worse and um it's something it's something that I think a lot of people maybe keep in mind or maybe should keep in mind about those experiences or at least have that kind of question in their mind um about how much of this desire is coming from from me is is is rooted in who I am here and how much of this disappointment and what the relationship ends up being is has fully stemmed from from you know my kind of uh you know European or North American perspective on what India is, what the Sadhu is what they offer to me and I think that's a kind of awareness that I think you know I think potentially more people might uh should have uh about these about these interactions so Justin has just trailblazed the most remarkable journey up until this point you know amazing times in the Philippines where he sort of went off the grid for a while there as well um beautiful photos of this epic road trip throughout the States but then also throughout India and he ends up at the Parvati Valley I'm sorry I'm butchering that pronunciation Parvati what is it again? I I've heard a few different ones but the one that I've heard most often is Parvati.

SPEAKER_02 56:19

A bit more emphasis on the Parv yeah so he's in Parvati Valley he's spent uh it's contentious to say how much time but up to three weeks living in a cave true vagabond stuff uh he was such an outdoorsman you know like a very romanticized traveler the type of person that would be in a fictional movie as the character as as the as the traveler as the idealized romantic traveler and he's on this uh uh almost desperate stance for finding some sort of spiritual conclusion or answer and that brings us to what is the end of the story because it's Justin's whole relationship with this sadhu which doesn't make any sense at all because Justin is clearly a smart really self-sustaining guy and you would expect him to be able to spot a fraud right away yet while everyone else saw a fraud in in Rawat this Sadhu Justin apparently did not and and despite Justin insisting to the world that it was in fact an authentic relationship as we've just spoken about it turns out that he was paying the guy which is just so unauthentic and you would expect someone like Justin who was really after the truth and the deep meaning would reject the payment and he's the type of guy charismatic enough he would be able to seek out a very genuine sadhu. But then to double down on that this sadho claimed to have you know chopped his penis off just to curtail his last a very romantic idea of wow look how aesthetic this man is look how look how spiritual he is and that's something that should be easily falsifiable since a sadhu is largely naked most of the time this sadhu had growth on his elbows and his shoulders which he claimed was from his excessive yoga which again to a guy as smart as Justin should be easily falsifiable because it just doesn't happen. And it's like well proof of how good you are at yoga then you know what I mean so all of this stuff um basically culminates and it's easy for us to look back in hindsight and say how obvious it all was but how do you explain this relationship between Justin and the Sadhu when Justin was such a smart perceptible guy?

SPEAKER_00 58:36

Was he being taken for a while a ride or was he sort of like a willing participant yeah I mean it's a great question and you know ultimately it's it's one of the questions that that I I I explore in the book and and so you know Justin arrives at in the Parvity Valley and he he very quickly heads up to its one of its most extreme points you know cut off from cell service and he um this holy place where Shiva had meditated there's these beautiful hot springs and finds a forest and finds this cave and and lives in it for for about three weeks with essentially nothing. And while he's there he meets this sadhu who is living near the hot springs and becomes very enamored with him and we know all this because Justin ultimately descended from from this place called Kirganga this this location and posted about it online. So he shared this interaction he talked about the um who he had met the impact that this man had had on him and you know shared videos and photographs and all this information about what had happened during those three weeks and and I think in some ways it's quite telling um what he shared and what he left out and to kind of hopefully kind of answer answer your question about about why did he not only become so enamored with this man and spend three weeks with him and I mean kind of every day visiting him for hours on end you know helping clean the hut that he was living in a very kind of subservient relationship um and and in the stuff that Justin wrote about uh he very clearly wanted something big out of this relationship not only that but also when Justin returns down to cell service he's he's restocking for this this final journey that the sadhu has invited him on to trek for days to this holy lake at the source of the Parvani River the glaciers at the top of the valley where they were going to spend weeks meditating and and visiting this holy site. And so he was not only so attracted to this person to spend weeks with him in his hut but also to follow him on this journey for for many more weeks this pilgrimage. And I think in some ways you know we've spoken a little bit about the lure of India and of the gurus and the sadhus and I think in some ways Justin as smart as he was as competent as he was in survival settings and even on the road he was a very competent experienced traveler who had been in a lot of different countries and a lot of different travel experiences and situations at times that lure of that experience becomes so strong that it's it's hard to avoid and it's easy to lose that rational questioning um part of your part of yourself completely. And I think you know I think I may not have followed a sadhu um on my own into the mountains for weeks but there were moments in India when I was first there in my early 20s where I did things that I I knew I was being drawn by the power of the experience. And when I first came across Justin's story and knew that he had disappeared on this this fateful trek that he embarked on with the Sadhu to this holy lake to the source of this holy river I immediately flashed back to an experience I had at the end of my first year in India where I trekked to the source of the Ganges River, India's holiest river. And on completely on my own for a couple days heading up there, you know you go to the glacier that drips down you know the purest water in that country the the source of that river that feeds so many millions. And I thought about the steps that I took and the steps that Justin took on two very similar pilgrimages very two very similar you know treks that and and the the pitfalls the things that I was drawn to I was drawn to this incredible experience. I had been to the Sunderbins where the Ganges spills out into the Bay of Bengal I'd been to Varinasi I'd been to Hardwar all these holy sites along the Ganges River and so in some ways it felt fitting to complete that circle and to go to the source of the river. I think it's in some ways I understand why Justin got a bit succumbed by by and a bit enamored by the lure of that story and the lure of that experience as somebody who had struggled with father figures in his life and was desperate for a teacher and desperate for somebody who was going to show him his way forward all of that you know and when you read the book and you put together all of these pieces and you look at that final question of him saying yes I'm gonna go with you on this journey it all kind of makes sense you know the person who he went with the the location where he was what he hoped to achieve all of his history in some ways was building to this one decision this one final journey and I find it quite understandable when you look at it in totality of all of the different forces at play why he may why he was so drawn to this experience and so drawn to this person in such a deep powerful way he had tried all of these different jobs all of these different countries all of these different experiences and ultimately and I think when you do those things the pressure builds the pressure for that final moment where you're sitting on a mountaintop and the clouds part and you're with your guide and he's talking about the universe that pressure is enormous and you've had so many experiences again and again the next one will be it the next one will be it the next one will be it yeah that's totally true the pressure yeah and here you are in India in the Himalayas meeting a sadhu who's invited you on a pilgrimage to you know the glacial source of this holy river I mean the temptation for a lot of people and particularly for someone like Justin would be enormous. And and I think in those moments where we have the pressure of experience often our filters our um our second guessing our questioning our kind of truth detector starts to fall away and we start to put ourselves into situations that potentially might be a little bit more dangerous or or um or with people who may not be fully honest. And and I've had a lot of moments like that and I'm sure a lot of people have as well um somebody who is promising something big or small and away we go and before we know it we're feeling uncomfortable. Totally yeah when you layer on Justin's history with social media it becomes this other pressure pushing at his back the grand experience to post about his Audience who is who is captivated and watching and waiting for the next post, the next big experience. And he had teased this one to his followers that that he was going for three weeks with this sadhu, you know, and all of this fascinating history, as you mentioned, some of the sadhu's kind of quirks, and you know, this was going to be an experience that his his audience was going to eat up. And that's another pressure at your back when you've promised something big to your audience and to yourself, and and you don't want to let both of those things down. And so when you think about it in Justin's entire history and all of the forces at play in his life, but also in the location, the people who he met, everything at that moment, um, was in some ways, you're right, a bit of a pressure cooker, an enormous wave at his back, um pushing him higher and higher into the valley, closer and closer to those mountains. Um and ultimately may have been one of the, or perhaps the largest, factors who ultimately led to his disappearance.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:10

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, he just spent several weeks in a cave. You know, he had such a high bar that he had to keep uh topping. Uh but I think that was just brilliantly said. Um I I I didn't pick up on that fully as I was reading it, but as you package it in that broader explanation there, I I I can completely see it now for sure. Uh quite simply, it was just the blinders were on. Um, the other people who would have seen this side who didn't have the same context that Justin was operating under. So he was more willing to say, you know, fuck it. It might look sketchy, but hey, I trust the guy. Because that was another thing that you you really uh emphasized Justin at the core of his traveling philosophy, which I think is just brilliant, it should be, but it is just endless trust. You know, there is few things make you as happy as putting your faith into someone else and then having that faith realized. And so yeah, it really makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:10

And he was, and you're absolutely right, and it was this thread, um in some ways quite a dark thread throughout the book and throughout Justin's life of trust and placing trust into people in this very honest and genuine and respect um respectable, like I I deeply admire it in him, um, in this in this way, but also you know, this really quite tragic history of being of being burned by that trust. And there were moments, you know, not to give anything away, but there were moments in his childhood and and his young life that of trusting people that ended up in really, really terrible uh situations, uh, mainly when he was a teenager. Um but also putting his faith and his trust into some of these father figures, some of these leaders, some of these guides who he who he deeply wanted to trust and ultimately didn't end up who he wanted them to be. You know, he had classic moments on the road of trusting the wrong person and being robbed, or being um, you know, in a fight and or you know, being lost and scared of moments where he, you know, and I think in some ways you might say, well, why wasn't he learning from these experiences? Why wasn't he, why wasn't his like, you know, trust that kind of deep, in some ways naive, but I think really beautiful trust in people, seeing the good in people, um, why wasn't why didn't that get tarnished? Why didn't he uh hold that for only the people that he really knew uh very, very well? And I think ultimately it says a lot about Justin's character as somebody who was constantly trying to see the light in the world and in people. He constantly was trying to look at them in a positive way and to see the beauty that they can give to the world and the beauty that they can give to him. And I think that's something that you know, I've essentially been following the story for five years, and it was something that I really feel like I um hopefully kind of taking away from that is this really admirable quality of seeing people for the good in them, uh, not purely for for everybody's complicated histories or whatever. Um but, you know, that kind of trust has its limitations and in this story has very tragic conclusion. You know, trusting the wrong person, um, trusting the wrong experience, and and ultimately that leading him, leading him astray or into a very dangerous situation. But ultimately it's it's hard to criticize when it is rooted in something really profoundly beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:21

Yeah, it it it uh as you're speaking there, it kind of reminds me of my brother, just like this uh naive level of trust and faith in another person with zero precedence, just a random person you meet, you know, like, hey, can I borrow your wallet? I gotta go run and do something. It's like, yeah, of course, man. Here you go. You know, like I mean, that's that's an amazing quality in a person, amazing quality. And it sounds like Justin really had this as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:50

Um, but yeah, I mean you gotta keep your wits about you, don't you?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:54

It's great, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:55

Absolutely, but I in particular for people who are traveling and for people who are you know far from home and potentially on their own, and you know, whatever country they're in, I think there is a an inclination to be very skeptical of everybody you meet and to think that everybody who is coming up to talk to you or every interaction you have is a dangerous one. Um, and of course there are dangers on the road um and and in in people and in places, and you know, you absolutely have to keep your wits about you. But I think there's this inclination, it's almost like there's the the first time you meet somebody, you're very skeptical. And I think Justin was not that person. Um, he was somebody who was very curious and very interested in people, and if that skepticism arose, so be it. But he wasn't going into an interaction with skepticism. Um, and to me, that's something that absolutely it can lead you astray, and absolutely it can lead you into tough situations, but it's such an admirable quality to have in somebody to to not immediately be concerned that they are going to do you wrong. And I I you know I really have taken that away from you know from spending a good chunk of my my life um uh you know following in this person's footsteps.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:24

So take us back to the story. Uh Justin has embarked on this trip to the source of the Parvati River to meditate for several weeks or an undetermined amount of time with the sadhu. The sadhu returns and Justin is never seen again. So what what happened to you?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:48

Well, I don't want to give too much away, um, because I you know I hope that people can pick up the book and and explore that aspect of the story, but um, in very kind of general terms, the sadhu returns and returns to his hut in Kirganga, and you know, life kind of goes back to normal in the Parverty Valley. And Justin had this date that he had put on social media as kind of mid to late September. He had he had you know embarked in late August. And so it was a little bit vague of when he was going to reappear, and but ultimately the days went by and then the weeks went by, and then people who knew him well, uh close friends back in the US, and some people who were, you know, travelers who he had met in the Party Valley became very concerned about where he went because as somebody who lived, you know, very deeply online, when he would have reappeared, he would have made contact, he would have posted something in some form. Um and so what happened is that this this search began, this very complicated international search, part on the ground in India. His mom and one of his friends flew to India to launch this incredible search for for any traces or any clues, or you know, ultimately going into it was to bring Justin home, you know, with this deep belief that he was still okay. Maybe he got lost, maybe he found another cave that he had been living in. Um but what happened when they arrogant when they arrived was um the story got a lot more complicated, and you know, the sadhu, when he was interrogated, his story kept shifting, and that raised a whole bunch of other questions. And the story just becomes a lot more uh complicated um on the ground and and back home in the US of all of these different people who were concerned about his well-being, but also people who felt they knew him very, very well. And so you had people theorizing about what had happened. Um, and a lot of people believed that Justin was still out there, that he was going on an experience for a reason and to leave him be until he comes back. And some of those people were fed by this quite famous final line that Justin posted to his blog and to his social media accounts before he embarked on this trip, which is you know, outlining this journey, this pilgrimage, and at the very end says, if I don't come back, don't look for me. And a lot of people hung on to that line as being absolutely the truth that he was going on something absolutely, and and in some ways I think it might have delayed a bit of a search, I think it might have, you know, was a factor to you know the concern, the level of concern. Justin's competency in the wild was also something that I think you know eased a lot of people's initial fears was that you know, if anybody could come out of a tough survival situation, it was Justin.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:00

Literally anybody. He was in the top end tail and distribution of wildlife people in the whole world.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:06

Yeah. And so it it you know the story gets much more complicated, Dan, and I and I you know I hope people pick up the book and from the written.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:15

Leave it on the cliffhanger there, don't say anymore. Because there is the there is the fate of the Stardew. There is your own experience going there, doing your own investigation, and then there is of course your speculation as to what happened. Uh so um yeah, it's a terrific book. I mean, we covered the India part, uh, but for sure everyone should go out and read it or listen to it.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:40

Yeah, the audiobook. Yeah, I recorded the audiobook um myself, but the one thing we haven't um touched on was the other kind of dark side of the valley itself, this this um really tragic side of the Parverty Valley, which, you know, despite the mountains and the temples and the hot springs and the hash and all of these kind of you know magnets that draw people in, um, over the past couple decades leading up to Justin's disappearance, dozens of other international backpackers had mysteriously vanished in the valley in this one tiny little spot. And it, you know, the title of the book, the the valley was given these nicknames, the Valley of Shadows, the Valley of Death, and India's backpacker Bermuda Triangle of people who had gone there. Essentially, one person a year um just completely vanished um off the face of the earth and with very, very few few clues, and um, you know, often uh a family going there to search for for their loved one that often left with more questions than than when they began. And so, Justin, you know, when I came across this story, I had heard about the Parvity Valley, I knew about its dark history, and so in part it was this incredible life and then this incredible person and all the forces that led up to his disappearance, but it was also this location that was absolutely fascinating and very tragic of all of these people who've gone missing there, and all of the families who have embarked on a similar search to uh to his own to try to make sense of what happened to to their son or their daughter. And you know, the part the valley itself became this other character um of the story, um, this other force that um you know is quit is obviously quite powerful, and this very kind of dark shadow that that um that haunts, I think, the story and haunts Justin's disappearance, and that added all sorts of other complications to to the search for him as sort of the latest person to disappear in this long, dark, uh, and very tragic line of um of vanishings.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:01

Yeah, and what makes what adds further complexity to that as well is the fact that it is such a flourishing drug trade in the area, right? And so the people that disappear, you don't know if they want to disappear because it attracts people that are just happy to exit their previous life and start the new one. And there's plenty of examples of uh sort of Westerners who wound up years later, you know, just living the aesthetic life. And they're basically don't know if they were from there, whether they got sucked into the drug trade, um, you know, removed by the drug trade, or just fell into the river because they had an accident and all the myriad problems that could happen. So yeah, um it makes it a it makes it a it makes it pr just a terrible place to have a crime investigation, which obviously becomes the case here as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:51

Yeah, and and and for me to go there um and to do my own kind of investigation into what happened. I went there twice. Uh the first time uh about five months or six months after Justin disappeared, and then again for for about a month um to work specifically on the book. And you know, a lot of there were a lot of theories about what happened, not only to Justin, but to all these other different people who disappeared, and and you know, becoming caught up in the drug trade um unwittingly or absolutely willingly um was was definitely a possible factor for some of these people. Um accidents, of course, you know, this is a remote mountainous landscape with with some very dangerous features, and you know, so simple accidents um were absolutely possible. And because it is so remote, you know, most of these people who who disappeared, their their bodies were never found. Um and you know, so there, but the you know, as you mentioned, there's this other, I think, really complicated and and fascinating aspect to to people who go to India specifically and and to some of these more remote uh Himalayan regions, which is this intentional, you know, the if I don't come back, don't look for me kind of uh motivation uh of willingly wanting to disappear, of giving up your belongings, of stepping into a new life. And and there are just dozens and dozens of examples of this. Um, you know, a couple that I include in the book of people who who showed up at their embassy 15 years later without a passport saying, I'm so-and-so from such country, I want to go home. Um, or you know, the fellow who I met at the at the tail end of my first trip in India, who was been who was living in a cave outside of Rishikesh and had was originally from Sweden and had arrived in India seven years before, had become completely fascinated by Hinduism, converted, and had burnt his passport and had no intention of ever returning home. And I met honestly dozens of people like that at various stages of of that kind of renunciation and that kind of transformation over the years in India, um, to the point where they, you know, are their own kind of subculture in that country, um, of people who become so fascinated by it that they are willing to, in some cases, cut away from their family and friends and start a new life, in some cases, a bit more of a balanced approach, who just want to live in India um, you know, full time, but uh there's a lot of people who who did the full the full break. And so it became this other question, and and some of the people who went missing there, you know, there were these questions and anecdotes that they were seen in other parts of India, and you know, of course, they were probably just another traveler who looked a bit similar, but it added to this question of when you looked at Justin's story in particular with his final line, you know, was that a joke or was he serious? It added this question of well, maybe he still is out there um traveling, maybe he still is out there wandering, maybe he did find his moment, maybe he had that that ultimate parting of the clouds in the mountains and and is still out there on his path. And in some ways it sort of ends on this kind of hopeful note of um that that maybe he did find what he was ultimately looking for.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:48

Yeah. That reminds me of something that I failed to bring up earlier in the sort of spiritual discussion of India, and that's this notion of India syndrome. You just recounted a lot of very dramatic changes in personality and worldviews upon entering India. Could you just give us the skinny on that? Because I think that was a fascinating part of the book as well. You don't hear of a Swedish syndrome, for example.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:14

Or maybe you do, but it's a no, there's there's a few um kind of cousins uh versions of this around the world, uh, Florence syndrome and Jerusalem's Jerusalem syndrome, but India, it's kind of started, um at least in name, um, with this French psychiatrist who was posted to Bombay, then Bombay in in the mid-80s, um, to work at the French embassy, um, which was kind of unusual to have a psychiatrist posted to an embassy abroad. Um, but what he, and part of his job was to to kind of hold the passports and the travel documents for travelers, if they wished, at the embassy, and then they would go travel around for three months or six months and then come back, pick up their plane ticket, their passport, and then fly back home. And so he would see travelers uh arriving, and then he would see them at the end of their their travel, at the end of their experience, um, at the end of their trip. And what he began noticing in some of them were these quite significant and in some cases quite severe personal uh and personality changes. And he documented it in this really fascinating book, um, and this condition that ultimately became known as India syndrome, which is not a clinical diagnosis necessarily, but more of a a spectrum of behavioral changes that people who go to India experience. And so I interviewed him, the author, but also um a couple uh Indian psychiatrists who who treat these foreigners, and and one of them who has this practice in Delhi sees about one foreign traveler every single week in his office who's coming in under some uh some influence of India syndrome. And on the benign end, it's you know, it can often be kind of extreme culture shock, um, where people you know become very isolated, become very disoriented, um, you know, depressed. But on the on the extreme end, it's people who have become so enamored by what India has to offer, um, in large part influenced by drugs, but also spiritual elements, that they have these kind of breakdowns there. And in some cases, there's extreme psychosis, there's um some really, really serious clinical um side effects of this. And so these these psychiatrists have seen time and time again these cases of people who, you know, the police have been called because a man has, you know, given up, burnt his passport, given away his belongings, has covered. His body at ash and is walking around like a sadhu. Or, you know, there was this case of this American woman who was in an ashram in Rishikesh who believed that she had become an Apsara, a Hindu kind of mythological uh temptress who would who would tempt the priests um at their resolve.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:24

Yeah, yeah. It's more than a temptress, isn't it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:27

Well, and it and so what happens in in some of these extreme cases is people you know think they are a god reincarnate, or they think they are um you know a being that has been brought back to life, or they think they have become a sadhu, or or have just found a path and have devoted everything to them. And so these psychiatrists get gets get calls from the police, they get calls from embassies, they get calls from concerned family members to go and try to find their loved ones. And in some cases, it ends up with people who have had these very serious breaks with their previous lives and ended up in a cave or in an ashram and have never returned home. And, you know, I've I've seen it in friends of mine, I've I saw it in absolutely in a lot of people who who I met on in my couple years in in India who who were absolutely on some point in that spectrum um being so deeply influenced by by what India has to offer. And I think the psychiatrist broke it down really in a really interesting way to me that he he kind of looks at these people in two groups, that there's one that comes with with this really deep desire to have a spiritual experience there and will at all costs have that experience, and so pushes themselves into increasingly greater extremes uh in that quest, in that search. Um, and that may mean you know, trying hash in an ashram with a sadhu who you don't trust, or or you know, giving up your belongings or changing your perspective on the world or or what have you. And the second group is of people who come to India with this uh kind of deep-rooted trauma or personal experience that they they kind of either hope to resolve there or don't, or isn't it hasn't quite been resolved, and because of the pressures of that country, um can bring that to the surface and bring those types of emotions and those histories to the surface in often a very kind of traumatic, uh, you know, and challenging way. And so it became this really, really interesting force to apply some of these stories to. And you know, I don't really say in the book in any outright way that Justin was experiencing this, because I, you know, I'm not a psychiatrist, I can't do that. But I think if you look at some of his background and some of his history, I think it's it's hard to not see how he was being influenced by this country in a very, very profound way before he arrived there and when he was there. Um, so it added this really kind of fascinating uh aspect to not only his story, but I think to the larger story of what draws people to that country um and what happens when they when they arrive.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:30

Yeah, it it does sort of compound on this inexplicable draw of India, doesn't it? Because all countries have their unique charms. You know, you'll have the best time of your life if you go to Russia or if you go to Mexico, and you can have great local experiences, but apparently it is India that could draw a psychosis out of you, you know, like that's um it's amazing. I can't think it you could go to China, you can go to Australia. I mean, I have I don't know about I don't know much about um about Africa, but I'm assuming, I mean, if you went and hung out with a tribe in Namibia for a while, I mean shit, it'd be an amazing experience, but would it fundamentally change your worldview completely? There's kind of nothing like it, eh?

SPEAKER_00 1:32:18

It I mean, I you know, we can always have transformative experiences in any country with any person or any people. Um and they can be enormous. Like I've had experiences all around the world, I've had experiences, you know, in Canada, in places that I've I've been had a huge impact upon me, but but to have, you know, to I don't think there's ever been a moment where I've been as close to, and I haven't actually been that close to it, but to stepping away from my family and you know who I was and where I was going and wanting to live in India for the rest of my life. Um you know, that that that has only really ever happened in one country, and it's a you know, when I was feeling that in that first trip, I didn't have a name for it, I didn't know what that was necessarily at that time um in 2008, but it was ultimately that's what I was feeling, and and I think it it is a it is a unique place in that regard where people are so caught can can be so caught up in uh what India has to offer spiritually, um, which is different than anywhere else. We've talked about a lot about this, um that can lead you onto a path that that ultimately could end up at a place where you are no longer talking with your family, you're no longer talking with your friends, and you're living in a cave or in a in a temple or changing your religion, um, and you know, giving up your belongings and and everything. And it, you know, and this is it may sound kind of bizarre, but there are so many cases of this. This is not an isolated thing, or a few examples. It's it is a very, very, very common occurrence uh in this part of the world.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:16

I I feel like I would be quite susceptible to it, to be honest. I'm gonna go to India soon, uh, but I need to keep my fucking wits about me so I don't become entranced by some charismatic father figure.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:29

First, first time to India?

SPEAKER_02 1:34:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:33

Yeah. Well, I mean, there are it's an incredible country, and and I I can't wait to go back. I can't wait to go back to the Parverty Valley. Um it's a place that doesn't I find doesn't really leave you. Um you know when I came home, I I on every trip that I've been to uh to India, um when I've I've come home from those trips, I've you know, more so than any other country that I've I've been to has stuck with me in a really kind of yeah, really kind of deep level. Um and I still think about it all the time. And uh so I'm I'm sure you'll be fine. Um I'm sure you'll you'll enjoy it, but I'm I'm sure it it'll be hard at times too, because it is it is a country that can push and pull you in in um in fairly dramatic ways.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:31

Uh I think that is a pretty natural conclusion to the the theme of the podcast, right? But there are a few more questions I'd love to ask you that are more general interest that I try to ask as many guests as possible. Uh but do you think there's anything left on the table there? I mean, we don't want to give it all away. You need the cliffhanger to get the book.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:50

Yeah, I think that's great.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:50

Yeah. Alright, then tell me what it was like sharing this story with both Rolf Potts and Chris Ryan. People I've listened to loads. I imagine you did as well beforehand. Uh, they're very influential guys in this sort of travel niche, especially in podcasting. What was it like speaking with them and sharing the story of the friend?

SPEAKER_00 1:36:13

Speaking with with Chris Ryan um when I was interviewed, when he interviewed me for his podcast, was it was the second time we spoke because I interviewed him for the book. Um, because Justin had come across Chris and had become quite a big fan of his podcast and his books. And Chris had invited him on the podcast. And so uh Justin had been interviewed on Chris's podcast, tangentially speaking, twice. And they had become quite, you know, close friends. And on Justin's last trip, um, Justin spent uh quite a lot of time with Chris in Thailand. They connected, they crossed paths. And so to speak with him, to be interviewed him for his podcast was a really interesting experience and different than any other that I've had because Chris knew him personally and had his own feelings about Justin as a person, as a traveler, and about what happened. And it added this really, you know, obviously very personal, um, very intimate element to the interview, um, which I really appreciated. And and uh so that was really a really um interesting one to to be a part of because a lot of people kind of look at at Justin as a character in a story, or they maybe they followed him on social media, or they they just read the book and are interested in in the book, but but Chris was shattered when Justin disappeared. And um, you know, so there was this emotional element to that conversation that I thought was really interesting and and to his perspective. Um and and Rolf Potts was was you know an a uh a wonderful experience to be on his podcast because I was a huge fan of his book, uh Vega Bonding for many years and had a you know had a big influence on me as a as uh when I was traveling, and and so to to be on his his podcast, honestly, was was an honor. Um and and I think I think was quite a fitting um quite a fitting uh interview as well because Justin loved Rolf's book, Vagabonding, and carried it around like a Bible, and kind of applied a lot of the the parts of it to his life. Um and was one of the last people that Justin messaged before he went on this fateful trip to say how much he idolized Rolf and to thank him for writing the book, and which was such an interesting aspect to to what happened in Justin's final days of the final messages that he sent out to family and friends and some of his idols, which you know, there's a way to read that that I think is very interesting about somebody who either knew something would might happen, had a bit of a premonition, or knew this was going to be a moment where he wanted to say his final thanks to people. Um and so that was a really interesting aspect to to talking with Rolf about that. Um but personally, you know, as as a writer, it was it was just an honor to be be interviewed by him.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:30

Yeah. Nice. Um well that brings me to the final three. The the ones I like to leave as many guests as possible. What is a moment that you experienced, and then looking back in your life, you you just can't believe you were a part of it? And let me know if you want more context.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:55

Um sure. A part of it in you know, in a positive way or whatever way comes to.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:06

You just can't believe you were a part of that. You know.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:11

I mean, I think there's a recent one in the past month that I, you know, as a young writer getting into journalism, you know, doing my journalism degree, maybe hoping one day to write a book, never thought would ever happen to me. And, you know, it it may come across as um, you know, bragging or something, and I hope it doesn't, but uh a couple uh not that long ago, the book was reviewed by the New York Times and and it appeared on the cover of the New York Times book review, which is just something that never happens, and I never ever thought that that was even a remote possibility that um that a book that I wrote might appear on on that on the cover of of the book review. Um so that was that was one of those moments, and I'm still kind of reeling from it, where I just never ever expected that that was even a remote possibility for my career. Um and and is still I'm still kind of having a hard time believing that that happened.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:24

Um that's amazing, man. I remember reading it, or I think it was on Twitter you wrote it, and you know, you were sort of crying on the way home. And I thought that's yeah, I went to what a fulfilling experience.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:36

I went to this great little uh newspaper and magazine store uh near my house and and picked up a copy. And you know, outside was this like classic old magazine rack or newspaper rack that said the New York Times on it, and yeah, it was I'll never forget that moment. Um yeah, with my little baby son strapped to my chest, walking home.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:01

Beautiful moment, man. That's exactly the type of uh of experience that I'm going for with that question. Um we've spoken quite a lot about India. Uh you might have seen that this podcast is sort of largely geopolitical. Um is there a country that you're very bullish on looking into the future? What is a country that you're most bullish on?

SPEAKER_00 1:42:24

You know, to kind of stay in the region, um you know, the first place that that comes to mind is is Nepal. And you know, it's a country that you know is kind of sandwiched between these two superpowers, China and India, and yet has its own, you know, distinct identity. Um but and it's gone through some some really tough times, you know, even pre-pandemic, with you know, earthquakes and avalanches in the Everest region and all sorts of things that have really um hammered the tourist industry, which is such a huge driver of the economy there. Um But it has a it has sort of a spirit to it, um, and not to get too kind of woo-woo, but it has a spirit to it of recovery and of bounce back, um, and of kind of dig yourself out that I've always really admired about that country, and I love the times I visited there. And I feel like at this kind of post, I know we're not post-pandemic, but I think at a time when people are starting to travel again and are wanting to, you know, potentially visit and you know, travel internationally, um, I could see that country being high on people's lists and experiencing quite a significant boom from the travel industry of people wanting to go and you know trek in those regions. And and it for such a small country that is often kind of overshadowed by by its neighbors, it has it has so much to offer in this tiny package. Um and you know, some of the most wonderful people um I've ever met on the road. And so I think economically, I think socially, um I think it has a really, really bright future.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:17

Amazing. The first Nepal we've had. Uh yeah, yeah, yeah. The Nepalese, they they kind of run the uh restaurant scene in Sydney. Well, they don't run it, but they're the they're the corpse. They're the they're the beating heart of the restaurant scene. All the chefs uh that I ever worked with or that I would just see through the sort of window into the kitchen, Nepalese. So um amazing people to touch nice, great sense of humour. Finally, Harley, this is my favorite question. Um, if you could witness a conversation between any two people of history, said listen to a podcast. No language barrier, dead or alive, who are you listening to?

SPEAKER_00 1:45:00

Wow, I I feel like you should have sent me these questions beforehand because um I probably need to think about this one. Um God, that's a hard one. Two people okay, this may be a little bit um different than you know, your classic kind of big figures in in history sitting down, you know, over tea or whatever. But my grandparents uh have a pretty remarkable or had a pretty remarkable uh love story. And they they met in you know post-world or pre-World War World War II uh in Vancouver in Canada. And shortly thereafter, my grandfather shipped out um and uh was part of the uh Canadian uh contingent as a tank commander going into Italy and and you know fighting in Italy and then the liberation of Holland and spent four years um away from my grandmother, uh, you know, who was his girlfriend at the time. And they wrote these love letters back and forth to each other. Um, and he sent her about a letter a week, and I have them all um because my grandma kept them all. And so they had this incredible love story, and the only letter that he kept um because he was fighting and in in Europe and some got lost and got ruined was the the letter in in response to his proposal by mail to my grandmother. Um, the the yes letter was the only letter he kept and brought home uh from the war. And so I have this incredible window into their life through these letters and this budding relationship across continents and oceans, you know, in this terrible, terrible time of my grandmother in Vancouver as a as a young woman and my my grandfather in Europe as a young man. But the to get a window into their life early on, you know, one of their first conversations or or that reunite that when he they're ultimately reunited when he took a ship from from the UK and landed in Halifax and took a train across the country and arrived in Vancouver to hear their conversation, you know, after four years of being separated, of now being married, um, you know, to them to sit down and to kind of talk about in person about what they the two of them had gone through. Um would be a really obviously that's a very intimate thing, but I think it would be a really wonderful thing to be a fly on the wall and to um to know kind of how that how that's how that story ended and how that's in some ways how that story began.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:00

Super beautiful, great uh great answer. And it's kind of funny. Uh the first 70-ish recordings, no one mentioned family. And now the last three that I've done, people have mentioned their own family. So I wonder if that's just a crazy coincidence or if that's some hangover from the pandemic. I don't know, but um that's uh I mean that's beautiful. What a what a great answer. I you know, I I live over here in Sweden, right? But something I really, really want to do if I can before they pass away is is try and interview my grandparents because I feel like I think we're from a similar generation, but so we know we we know too little about our uh older generations, and my parents know nothing about their grandparents, and it's kind of like what's going on, guys? Why are the stories not passed down? Um so you know where you come from. You you have a lot of either understanding for why grandads like that, or you know, you know, so that's beautiful. That would be an amazing thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:59

It tells you it tells you who you are in some ways, and looking looking back, yeah, and look looking back can can often lead you the way forward. And um, and you're right. I mean, I had talked to my grandfather a little bit, but he was kind of part of that generation that didn't really talk about it, and I was fascinated by the stuff, you know, during World War II. And but the one thing I did do was when I read his letters, you know, he was getting a bit old, older then, and his memory wasn't as good. But the one thing I did do was I transcribed some passages from his letters and printed them out and then hit my recorder and and he just read them. And so I have these beautiful these beautiful audio tapes of my grandfather reading some of these letters that he wrote to my grandmother um on tape. Um and uh, but even just having those documents, I mean, they're beautiful, and there's 225 of them, and an incredible kind of historical document as well, you know. Um Yeah, I I've been I've thought about kind of the next book and I would love to do that story in some capacity, maybe not next, but at at some point, maybe later on, and kind of to go back into follow using his letters as a guide, but to follow his journey through Italy and through Europe. And, you know, um there's this crazy story that when he was in northern Italy and got and Italy fell and he was take, you know, uh gonna be transferred to to France and then Holland, they couldn't leave all their armaments, so he sunk his tank, he drove it into Lake Trizamino, and he was a tank commander, won the Victoria Cross, and I um I uh would love to go find his tank.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:46

Man, what a good day's work liberating the Netherlands. Not bad, yeah, not bad.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:52

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:53

Well, Harley, uh amazing book. Anyone who's interested in the story of Justin or to learn more about India for sure, it's an absolute must-read. Thank you, mate. Very generous with your time and generous with your responses. Yeah, cheers.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:09

Thank you so much for having me. It's been a total pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:11

Cheers, Harley. Thank you again, mate. Um, and if any of that appealed to you, dear listener, then do go out and consume Harley's book because if something in there you know appealed to you, piqued your interest, believe me, the book goes into it much deeper. Harley researched first person here and extensively and wrote an amazing book, really an amazing book, because it is more than just the life of Justin Alexander, it is as well this philosophy on the Pavity Valley, but as well as India as a spiritual destination, and it's just so, so fascinating. And it really piqued my interest in India and um was largely the catalyst for the episode that came out last week or two weeks ago with Prashant about uh India serving no as cricket serving as uh the defining characteristic of what it meant to be an Indian. Um, the role of sport in creating uh culture and also these days in uh spurring nationalism and um the role of sport, particularly cricket in India, or forming identity. It's fascinating, it's got nothing to do with this except for the common theme of India, but nonetheless, um absolutely uh amazing book. I encourage you to consume it. Thank you again, Harley. You're an absolute legend. Now, dear listener, my ambition for the podcast is to corner the market for eclectic curiosities in whatever country it is you're listening in from. So if this is the first time you're hearing this appeal, I'm going to make it much more redacted than it might usually be in other podcast episodes. But for me to achieve this goal of cornering the market for eclectic curiosities, the podcast must be reviewed and it must be distributed and then therefore shared and spread. Uh, the only way really that the algorithms or the lists generate according to reviews. So, Apple, you can review with a comment, Spotify, you just review with stars. Wherever you're listening to, there is some sort of reviewing mechanism. In addition to telling people about this and sharing it on Twitter and everything, also leave nice healthy reviews. So that's all from me. Thank you, you absolute legends. All the best. Until next time. Cheers again, Harley. Bye bye.