123: David Liu | Taiwan’s Unofficial Ambassador To Sweden

🎙️: https://atlasgeographica.com/david-liu/

David Liu is Taiwan’s unofficial ambassador to Sweden.

He’s lived in Sweden for 11 years and is writing a book which explains the Swedish culture and mentality in a way through which the Taiwanese people and audience can relate. He is a cultural bridge between these two magnificent cultures and countries.

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• 000:00 – Introduction.
• 02:11 – Where Did It All Being? An Introduction To Taiwan.
• 08:11 – Integrating Into Sweden & Belonging.
• 17:16 – Talking Taiwan Top To Bottom.
• 43:37 – More On David’s Story & Making A Taiwan/Sweden Comparison.
• 56:13 – Swedish Startup Community, Culture & Norrsken.
• 1:16:35 – Sweden Is A Country Of Paradoxes + Impact Startups.
• 1:29:22 – Country You Are Bullish On + Conversation Between Any Two People Of History.

🍻☕: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/ryanhogg

Episodes Of The Curious Worldview Podcast Mentioned.

• Angelica Oung – Taiwan Top To Bottom.
• Magnus Brandberg – Swedish Exceptionalism.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

David Liu is Taiwan's unofficial ambassador to Sweden. He's lived in Sweden for 11 years and is writing a book which explains the Swedish culture and mentality in a way through which the Taiwanese people and audience can relate. He's a cultural bridge between these two magnificent cultures and countries. And in this podcast, David joins me. He speaks about many, many things, including a very deep explanation of what is Taiwanese culture. He speaks about what it is like to live in Taiwan, what it's like to be from Taiwan, how Taiwan thinks about China, Taiwan's extremely multicultural roots. But then he goes all the way through to his own experience, leaving Taiwan, coming to Sweden, being an outsider in this cold, isolated country. And then we then speak about impact investing, the culture for entrepreneurship in Sweden. And David offers some explanations for what makes Swedes exceptional in this area. David is the head of community and engagement at Nochwin, which is an ecosystem for impact startups here in Stockholm, Barcelona, and in uh Kenya as well, I believe. They provide finance, office space, expertise, and overall they are just a hub for impact entrepreneurs. It is a really cool, interesting company. And this was an absolute pleasure to record with David. We sat down together in the Norquin House here in Stockholm. And again, I am reminded how much I prefer doing these interviews in person. All right, now you all sort of know the drill. Now, this took me five hours to put together, but will only take you five seconds to review. So I encourage you all to pump that good juice into the algorithm. And that is done by five stars and a review. So if you're on Spotify, swipe up your phone now, take it out of your pocket, swipe it up, miss the face contact one time, try again. You're in Spotify, go to the app, bang, scroll to the top, five stars. Thank you very much. You're an absolute legend. I would encourage you to get everyone else that you know who listens to podcasts to do that as well, and tell someone that you're interested in, that you think might be interested in this about the show. And with absolutely no further ado, here is the great David Liu. Well, David, where did it all begin?

SPEAKER_03 2:16

Well, I came to Sweden 11 years ago. And that was basic I basically came here for study. And a lot of people ask why Sweden? Because it's not a very common destination for studying, right? Um, at that time, um, because I'm emerging from Taiwan, and for most of the Taiwanese students who want to go to abroad to study, usually they go to either America, the UK, Australia, and I at that time I wanted to go somewhere that I have absolutely no idea about. So, of course, Nordic countries came up, and at that time, basically, the the only things I knew about Sweden at that time was basically IKEA, HM, those kind of things.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

So I decided to give it a try. But before that, I'm talking way back in the beginning, where you're born in Taiwan, the upbringing.

SPEAKER_03 3:10

Well, um, I was born in the second largest city in Taiwan in the south of south of the island called Gaoshung. So um, what else? My both my father and my mother worked in the education sector, more specifically. Uh, my mom is a kindergarten teacher and my dad is the in the uh management team of that school. Um, so it was quite a happy family, and then um I'm always the kid that is a little bit different. Um, so you know, at the time um I always thought like I wanted to go out, I want to see more things. So I am still the only one in my entire family that is not living in Taiwan, that is not living in the city, otherwise they all live very close by each other.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

Is it really unusual what you did to not only maybe travel to another place, but to fully move?

SPEAKER_03 4:10

Um to my family, yes, and to my at least to my college classmates who are still in Taiwan, maybe still yes, because some of them also went abroad to study, but all of them went back to Taiwan except me.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Really?

SPEAKER_03 4:27

Yeah, and then they still have no idea why I'm ending up in a very cold country where I had a chance to be in the tropical island.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

Yeah, yeah, because uh you can surf in Taiwan, can't you? Yeah, you can do basically marathon, it's the jungle in a bit, right? Yeah, exactly. Super beautiful. All right, but then tell me a little bit about Taiwan then, help me understand the country.

SPEAKER_03 4:50

Well, it's um it's a beautiful island. Um, of course, a lot of people probably knew about Taiwan because of the controversy with China, but that has been there for the past 70 years or 80 years, so that's how it is. And um uh a lot of people don't know that actually Taiwan, the native language is Mandarin. A lot of people thought it's Taiwanese. There's a dialogue of Taiwanese, but at least when I was brought up, it was Mandarin, so I was Mandarin educated. At that time, that was the language for the elite. Um I'm 35 years old, so at that time where I grew up, that was a language for the elite. Of course, my family spoke another dialect, but they didn't really want me to learn that dialect because they wanted me to learn Mandarin, that is the language for the elite, for the educated, and so on. So and uh I regret quite a lot now because I think I should be able to speak my own dialect, but I can't.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

Does that mean there's some sort of prejudice on you when you're home? People brand you by your accent?

SPEAKER_03 5:54

Yeah, and accent that is a very interesting topic. Um uh I had an accent when I speak Mandarin. Let's put it this way when Taiwanese people speak Mandarin, we all have an accent. So for people from China, the moment we speak, they can totally understand we are Taiwanese. Our accent is very, very soft and very flat because Taiwan used to be a colony of Japan. And so we are deeply influenced by the Japanese culture, and also we are in the south part of the Asia. You can understand, you know, for example, the language is from Southeast Asia, it's a little bit flat, a little bit um sticky in terms of pronunciation. Uh, compared to the accent, Mandarin accent in Beijing, sometimes I couldn't really understand because the accent is very thick and very strong. So I have a Taiwanese accent, but more specifically, I have an accent from my hometown, which makes it very easy for people in Taiwan to understand where I'm from. But since I moved to Taipei uh at that time to the capital city for study in college, I studied broadcast media. And um uh basically, still nowadays, if you want to work in the television industry or broadcast industry, you need to speak the Taipei accent, not this standard accent. And I didn't have an accent. So at that time in college, um I have a trainer, and basically she told me if you really want to be successful in this as a career, you need to change your accent and I can help you. So I let her do that. So basically I lost my original accent already. That's the first first thing. And after I moved to Sweden, and then um, because there are so many different cultures and so many things influence my my accent. So now my accent becomes something different. When I'm in Taiwan, um sometimes people don't feel I'm from I'm local, basically. And uh sometimes when I speak Mandarin today, and one time in Starbucks, so the uh the barista replied me in English, and I was also experienced, and then I asked her why, she said, Oh, I thought you are probably you're not just not from Taiwan because your Mandarin was not very fluent, or the accent was a bit weird.

SPEAKER_01 8:15

Yeah. How do you how do you relate to sort of uh your identity and belonging in connection with your hometown and your family and your friends? Because you've done the extremely unusual thing of first leaving the country, going to some weird European country. You also now are saying that you've taken a dialect coach to even lose your home accent. You know, how does that distance affect the way you belong? And do you feel like there's a place you belong, you know? Um, and I know that might feel like a totally out there question, but uh I imagine uh we're in a similar position, but many, many people who end up as foreigners in another country do experience this somehow.

SPEAKER_03 9:01

Yes, and I can totally relate to that. I think I am still an in-between person or citizen. So um that means when I am in Sweden, of course I see this as my home now, but you don't really feel it's a home home because number one, I'm not a native speaker, so a lot of times I still don't really understand the language that much or that well. Um but number two, it's in a different kind of a culture. So um of course I'm already getting used to it quite a lot. For example, like Swedish winter, it doesn't really bother me that much anymore.

SPEAKER_02 9:41

Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:41

Uh but when I am in Taiwan, um sometimes I feel I'm a foreigner because everything changed so rapidly. So my hometown is not already looking like the hometown I could remember. And then there are always new technologies. For example, like last time, finally, when I was in Taiwan in July this year, I installed the app that basically enables mobile payments. So you don't need to have the credit card anymore, you can use that to transfer money, whatsoever. Um, but before I didn't have that, and then um the language I am still using, which is Mandarin, um, that is a language that in my mind hasn't progressed that much. So, for example, I can't really understand the slum nowadays, the young people are using, or maybe there are some terms I'm using, and then people feel like, oh, uh what year did you pop? Like, why are you using the slum?

SPEAKER_01 10:34

Or the popular terms like two years ago. Yeah, and it's kind of like, are you even from here?

SPEAKER_03 10:39

Do you Yeah, yeah. So I mean, so I and I'm not alone because I talked to some other also foreign background people here in Sweden, more specifically, the um the first generation immigrants, and everyone experienced this. And um, and I think it's only going to be more and more. Um when I was studying in Stockholm University, so the topic of my thesis was about the mobile um the sort of the engagement uh for immigrants on the mobile apps and so on. And then the basic research funding is nowadays immigrants in Sweden uh basically um have uh have a less possibility if they want to have a less possibility to integrate better in the society because we have the internet, we have everything, so you still keep your original identity no matter what. But I interviewed quite a lot of people moved here um 30 or 40 years ago, even 50 years ago, they had to make themselves become a suite. That's the only way because um telephone calls were super expensive at that time, and they didn't have FaceTime, they didn't have social media, they didn't have anything else, and they couldn't read even the news from their home country, right? So the only way to survive is to make sure make yourself become a suite, and nowadays it's a completely different mindset, especially you can basically live anywhere you want.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

Yeah, yeah, it's funny, it makes me think of my uh my wife's um granddad, uh, who's from the country of Sweden, uh the country of Sweden, the countryside within Sweden, and um he doesn't speak English, and so we go back and forth in you know very basic conversation. Um, but um uh there's a story he has because he sort of looks at me and goes, Why aren't you speaking better Swedish? You know, why why aren't you a part of the culture? And he tells a story about um an Italian who came after World War II that he worked with for a while, and it's just not a fair comparison. This Italian man, this is building on your point about uh having access to FaceTime and social media and Google, this Italian man was put on a uh construction line with only Sven, Per, Anders, Arne, you know, oh my god, blonde Swedes. And therefore he integrated very, very fast. He understood the culture, he understood the customs, he understood the food, and most importantly the language. Um, and that level of integration where it's almost forced upon you because it's a very hard thing to do to try and adopt fully into a new culture. That forced integration uh obviously is completely uh it it's it's it's not even feasible.

SPEAKER_03 13:36

Yeah, yeah. And I think Sweden is very unique in this way. Of course, we um I actually just last week I talked to a a uh female investor who invested in startups and she's originally from Canada and moved to the US, but she has a Chinese root. Uh so she's like a almost third generation of immigrants, and um so um what we find out or discovered is uh, for example, in the US, only in Canada, where of course everyone says we have they have diversity and inclusion, and that's actually true. In Sweden, we also say we have diversity and inclusion, but there's a pre-requirement that basically is if you become a suite, then we have diversity and inclusion. But so you know it's also a socialism country, so it emphasizes um homogeneous. So you need to basically uh have a basic understanding of the culture and so on. And for this part, I can strongly relate to Taiwan as well, because uh there are not too many foreigners in Taiwan. Uh, and even they are not foreigners, you really need to integrate. So it's like you have a very much a local life, but if you are a foreigner, you can choose to live like an expert and you can do that for forever, and that's totally fine, but you will never be a Taiwanese. And if I look at the foreigners in Taiwan, for example, um now uh 10% of the uh population, especially uh below 18 years old, 10% of the population, they either one or both of their parents are coming from Southeast Asia, which is a very amazing number if you think about it. However, if we look at the acceptance of the migrants from this region to Taiwan, it's actually quite low. And uh very, very sadly because their occupation, they could be construction worker, they could be uh healthcare uh nurse or or other occupations. So um that that becomes a problem. And then I can totally relate that to Sweden because in Taiwan, those people, the only way they could be seen as a Taiwanese is you really need to speak the language, and then you need to prove yourself a lot and and so on. But on the other hand, it also unlocks quite a lot of opportunity for the country, right? For example, like now you have a stronger tie with Southeast Asian countries, and then that also unlocks a lot of business opportunities and cultural opportunities. The only way is that we need to embrace that, and um, you know, in Taiwan, we um the at least the government talks about now to um really uh previously government took it about to make English as the second language for the country, which is a huge transformation. But the the thing to me is but you have such a huge population in Taiwan, and Taiwan has 23 million people, you have like 10% of the people under 18 years old who phenomenal. Yeah, phenomenal, and their mothers or fathers are coming from Southeast Asia, but you don't prioritize their language, but you want everyone to speak English instead. And also interesting is we are so close to Japan, but Japan never made it, Japanese never made it to the second language, even we used to be a colony. So I think but it's all down to the I think a little bit of the international relations and so on. Of course, I mean we want to have a stronger tie with USA. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

On that political point, uh, obviously these days the relationship between Taiwan and China is like one of the hottest geopolitical issues. Yeah. But when you were growing up, what was the relationship like um between the two countries?

SPEAKER_03 17:26

Yeah, very interestingly. So when I was in elementary school, so between uh six to twelve years old, we had almost military drill almost every month. And at that time, I thought that was completely normal. I thought every country in the world was doing this because that was just a part of our life. So it was very simple, just a one-hour military drill. So you will hear the serum in the city, and then you would know what to do, where to hide, or what happened, what to do. So we you had those kind of practice every month, almost every month, or every quarter at least. And then I just took it as part of the life. And then when I grew up, um my grandfather, so you know, he grew up in the Japanese occup um occupied period, and then he also experienced the uh 1949 wave, you know, the the only uh Chinese immigrants, Oli Guomindang, who was a nationalist party and then was fighting with the Communist Party, and then the Nationalist Party was failing, so they moved to Taiwan. So everything he experienced. So um when um when I was young, I mean I uh heard from him a lot about those kind of stories and about his worries. He said, you know, we need to prepare, you know, we need to get ready because the Communist Party could actually uh launch a war very soon. And so we I've been hearing about it f since I I mean since I was young. And then Taiwan has been in this situation for the past 70 years, maybe, and then still nothing happened, but still, I mean that doesn't say it won't happen because everyone actually thinks about the war will happen eventually. It's just when. Yeah, yeah. So um, and it's just uh in a recent maybe two to three years, it became a such a hot topic around the world because of different issues like in the USA or the last the the last peak was um Nancy Pelosi visited Taiwan, right? Yeah, and at that time actually I was in Taiwan. Oh wow. I was in Taiwan, so and the um the day she left Taiwan was actually also the day I was about to leave Taiwan for coming back to Sweden, and at the time there was some military actions around the Taiwan Strait and Taiwan seas, and then um and so quite a lot of flights had to address, and quite a lot of flights got cancelled. So I was very worried. I couldn't really cancel. Imagine that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:09

The day you're supposed to leave, Taiwan goes into full military lockdown. Yeah, then they call it the conscription.

SPEAKER_03 20:15

But at last failed that, actually. So at last time it was the first time after so long time, I feel like maybe a war is coming. Yeah. What did that feel like? Uh the first thing, of course, you think about your family, because they are all in Taiwan, and um also you started to think about if there are any solutions to this. For example, like, can I move them to Sweden? But very quickly, last thought just uh got cancelled because I mean it's not fair for them. They've been living in Taiwan for their lifetime, suddenly they move them to another country, it's not good for anyone, and then um and that's their home, and they will probably stay there. So the first thing you came out is always about your family, and then I also thought about how about myself, because technically the Taiwanese government can still call me back to for military action. I'm still under 40 years old, and then so you know, that could still happen. And then I thought about if I would actually do that, but then very quickly the answer is yes, because I am a single person here, so I don't have any anyone to worry about here in Sweden, but I have my family in Taiwan, so if that's what the government wants me to do, but at least I can be in Taiwan if my family is still there. So and then I'm obviously even they want me to be back to Taiwan, but I'm still too old to go to the battlefield, so I would do other things, maybe logistics or maybe exactly yeah. And then and we also um at my time we had all the men need to do a one year mandatory military um training. So I did that as well already, and then they assign they before you uh finish the training, so they assigned. You a basically a role that is when the war happens, what would you do? You know what to do. And um, my role was assigned to be doing propaganda. So that's hilarious.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

Yeah. Do you have uh any any campaigns that you have in draft?

SPEAKER_03 22:15

Yeah, because I mean last time I was in the military, so in the military service, um, what I did was basically doing those kind of internal communications. I mean, a little bit external as well, but internal communication means I wrote articles, I sometimes produced shows to basically encourage the soldiers to really understand why they have goals.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

What a what a what an incredible thing to do.

SPEAKER_03 22:38

Yeah, and then so like it was almost saying like um you know, you we all need to sacrifice for our country, for our family, and so on. And now thinking back, it was a very outdated approach to do that. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

Yeah, do you think that call for nationalism would vibe with the Taiwanese?

SPEAKER_03 22:57

I think it all depends on if it if there was a war, it all depends on how it happened and what happened in between.

SPEAKER_01 23:05

How unfair and egregious is it? I know, right? Definitely, yeah. That that's a that's a massive point on the Ukraine-Russia war. Had it not been so blatantly unfair, then one can imagine alternative scenarios where the resistance isn't so absolute.

SPEAKER_03 23:21

Yeah, definitely. And um, no one wants to see a war happening, especially if there was a war happening on Taiwan. What is very sad is uh both the USA and Japan have said that they probably will engage as well. Because so could you imagine a war between China, Japan, and uh USA, that would be a tragedy for the entire world, but that would be a truly World War III for sure.

SPEAKER_01 23:46

Yeah, yeah. Help uh me understand more China, um, and even Taiwan as well, and I'll just preface the question by saying so. This is the caricature that although ethnically Taiwan and China are very similar, like you said, it was the it was the nationalist party that was kicked out, so it was mainlander Chinese who moved over to Taiwan. Yes, ethnically, you're almost the same people, but culturally very, very different. Yeah, that's my like very uh basic understanding of it from the outside. Having grown up in Taiwan, uh what do you think about this?

SPEAKER_03 24:22

Yeah, I mean your understanding is very accurate. So uh number one, ethnicity. So um, if the um the people who came to Taiwan after 1949, they are basically the Chinese descent. But for example, like but the majority of the Taiwanese still nowadays, um, our ancestors came to Taiwan way before 1949. For example, my family came to Taiwan maybe 200, 250 years ago, and at that time, only the single man, I think under the age of 30 were allowed to move to Taiwan at that time by the the government at that time in in China. So, and that's how they started. So, if you are married, you are not allowed to go to Taiwan. So only single men go to Taiwan and went to Taiwan. Right. So the only and those men were very poor, basically. They were hoping to go to a new place to make money, to make a new life, and the only way that you could get land in Taiwan or you could get rich is to marry Aboriginal indigenous woman because it's a more like a feminine society in those uh local. Fascinating. Yeah, so uh that's the only way you can get rich, and you can basically what a time to be alive. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, yeah, that's how my ancestor started. So uh interesting, so and also I don't know if you know, but the Taiwanese indigenous people, they are basically the same ethnistic group within the only Austronesian people. So Australisian people, those people from the Pacific Island Pacific Islanders, really? Yeah, yeah. So even the uh Aboriginal or indigenous people in New Zealand and Australia, so they are having the same route all the way, tracing back to Taiwan. And there was an argument that Taiwan was actually a starting point for all of them because all the way migrated there. So there was a really fascinating documentary that invited some indigenous, very old indigenous people to those Pacific Islands, and they find out they could actually communicate in some terms. That would be amazing. So I did it, those kind of very popular DNA tests, and then they find out I um 92 or 91% harm Chinese, some coming from South China, and then around like 7% Austronesian, and then I'm not alone because a lot of Taiwanese are like this, and um so you know, in a way that is because you know, a lot of the immigrants at that time coming from China, trace back to 200 years ago, they are not from the rich families, they are not from the prestigious families because you didn't need to move, you were having a really good life in China at that time, and then so we have already so many cultures on the island of Taiwan, and so everything all mixed, and also not to mention Taiwan has been an island on an outstanding location, so we've been colonized by so many different uh countries to start with. Uh Portuguese found Taiwan, so then they call us Formosa, and that basically means a beautiful island. Well, so Formosa is still the term that we sometimes use to call, we we are still using it to call Taiwan ourselves, and then Spanish came, and then Dutch also came, and then uh I'm not sure about British, maybe not, and then Japanese as well, and then we call the the wave after 1949, the Chinese immigration as well. So we've been an island of many cultures, you could still see those heritage buildings in Taiwan. And uh I think I'm not sure about the things happened between 1949 until maybe 2000, but you know, after 2000, and then there was another wave of the dem democracy and everything else, and then also starting to people started to really want to be seen as different than the communist-controlled China at that time. So I think when I grew up, I still uh heard some elderly people say we are Chinese. I mean, so they strongly believe they are Chinese and they represent the actual China, yeah. And then the communist-controlled China is not the the the the real China in their terms. Um but I grew up in a different time, so we started to develop our own identity, and especially I think after 2014, when the Hong Kong movement started, and then everyone started to realize how what a dangerous situation we are in, even we've been in this situation for the 70 years. Um and uh uh of course now Taiwan also has the homosexual marriage as well, so makes it the first one in Asia. And Taiwan has always been very proud about the freedom of speech and freedom of journalism, for example, which makes us further different than than China. So from now, from today, if I look at Taiwan and China, of course, I understand we share a lot of cultural similarities, we share the language, but we are two completely different countries in many, many ways. In terms of a system, in terms of the political uh formalities, in terms of a lot of different things.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

Yeah. That um that detail about the ethnic origins is fascinating. Yeah. Um what about the economy? Um, because I I know that you have a higher per capita GDP, but it's kind of unfair because China's dividing it by like 1.4 billion or something. Um but is there a general level of prosperity in Taiwan, or is there an exceptionalism to how productive you are? Uh is there a bit of a social safety system? Uh explain to me a bit about the economy.

SPEAKER_03 30:21

Yeah, so economic-wise, um because there are still two different ruling parties in in Taiwan, or like you can divide it into left and right almost. So it really depends on who is in the party. For example, like for the past eight years, it was more a left-wing party. So, you know, that's why we uh strengthened our democracy and we passed the little law for uh gay marriage, and then we uh they started to really implement a lot of the different policies to protect minorities in Taiwan, those kinds of policies. And uh but um while they were what now the ruin party what the president Thai, what she's trying to do is to really diversify our economics because it used to be so much dependent on China, both importing and exporting, and that could be a very dangerous business model, right? Especially nowadays, everyone fragile. Yeah, fragile, because now everyone or every country in the world understands the supply chain um vulnerability, you know, when you have been so dependent on China and when there's a lockdown and everything just uh breaks. So um so um in terms of economy, so still um Taiwan could still be seeing very much capitalism in many ways. We have quite low income tax, I believe. If you are not a super rich person in Taiwan, because I never really pay actual income tax in Taiwan, I never really worked in Taiwan. But if you are just a middle class, I think the tax rate could be just a 7% or 8% income tax. But you pay everything else. So, for example, like your kids starting from kindergarten until PhD. In Sweden, we pay basically almost zero. In Taiwan, you pay tuition fees, and not to mention you need to send your kids as an Asian parent, you'll send your kids to learn different things and then make sure they perform very well in school and not also spend uh not very costly as well. Um, the only thing that is very much socialism and you actually doing better in Sweden is this healthcare system. Okay. You pay quite a reasonable amount each month based on your income, and you can access to the best healthcare system in the world. For example, like an emergency room, that basic means you will be able to see the doctor in 10 minutes or even five minutes, and you probably understand how it works in Sweden. You probably won't see the doctor in hours. Yeah. And uh you can always access the the system, and the system is really good, but that basically means all the doctors and nurses need to work 24-7. So it's not the best job in Taiwan, although it earns you so much money. Um, education-wise, it is still quite an elite system. Um, so basically, um there's nothing like Sweden that you um you can learn whatever you want because both your parents and the school teachers will expect you to choose a pro uh subject that is so much better than then, for example, like your parents will never encourage you to study art or even a communication study I started before because they feel like you will not get a proper job and so on. So instead they will inc encourage you to study engineering or law or medical studies, those are the three top kind of prospect jobs in in Taiwan.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

Having made having lived 11 years here and the rest of your life in Taiwan, uh what have you learned about like economic development? Uh things that really work and that that you and things maybe that that don't work in the two systems.

SPEAKER_03 34:16

Well, I think what works in Taiwan is um you always have a great pool of talent because of the educational system, but that also means kids might not have the best childhood in their life, but it provides talent for the country to develop further. So, you know, you have a lot of tech talent, you have a lot of different talent, and then because of the culture, so you know you need to work hard to get the things you want. You can't expect the government or you can't really uh rely on the government. So the unemployment rate in Taiwan is I think it's like three percent or something, while Sweden is like seven, but that's a different comparison because in Taiwan, if you're out of a job, you are on your own. No one can support you. So you really need to get a job. Uh so that basically ensures the country can have a stable development in the next 10 or 20 years. Uh while in Sweden it's a different kind of story, right? So you um, because in Sweden you really need to under like why always say to the people in Taiwan when they learn that oh, you live in Sweden, oh, you must be amazing, you have a such an equal society, then you have like parental leave, you have the amazing well uh welfare system by always telling, yes, that's all true. Uh, based on you need to pay 30 to 40 percent tax, sometimes even higher. Definitely. And in um, and then they started to pose the question okay, so what about you? If you don't want to have a have a child, if you don't want to have children and you still need to pay that much tax, and then your colleagues could be on parental leave while you need to work, and I say, Yes, but that's part of the contribution you need to make. And I say, I'm super happy to make this contribution because raising children is so difficult, it's such a huge commitment and job. But the country needs uh children, uh sometimes more children to survive.

SPEAKER_01 36:23

So if I can be a society, a culture exactly.

SPEAKER_03 36:26

So if I can pay my tax and someone will raising the next generation, so when I retire, the country is still growing strong. I mean, that's a wonderful investment to me. But to a lot of the Taiwanese people, it's they are not thinking like me. They think like, oh, so you are paying so much money to raise other people's kids. And I say, Yeah, that's correct, that's exactly how it is. So that's why I mean Taiwan has the one of the lowest birth rates in the world. I think it's the second to the last.

SPEAKER_01 36:59

Which is a terrible statistic to have. Yeah. Because if I don't know, China or doesn't even have to be China, implosion by yourself, if you play that along a long enough timeline, you will no longer have enough taxable receipts to pay out any type of pension to to even build a national budget. No, again, yeah, you need to have at minimum the 2.0 replacement rate. Yeah. Uh what is Taiwan then? I guess it's 0.7%. Yeah, 0.7. Yeah. Because I I think South Korea is the lowest.

SPEAKER_03 37:33

It's the lowest, yes. And then there are so many reasons. I mean, for example, like if I look at my my friends in Taiwan around the same age as me, they don't have children, not because they don't want to, because number one, they are working on the long hours, so they don't really have the time. And number two, if you want to raise children, especially in cities, you need a big space or enough space to live. But Taiwan or in Taipei is almost like Hong Kong. Like all the apartments are super expensive, like unreasonably expensive. Yeah. So you cannot have the space then. And then number three, like I mentioned, start the moment your child is born, and until this person can be independent, you need to spend so much money on education or everything. So it's a financial thing. It's a financial thing, it's mostly a financial thing, but also it's also um quite a lot now what I see is in my generation compared to my parents' generation, there's a complete cultural crash. So, for example, like um they think that maybe when uh if you are a guy and you marry to a to a lady, so you should move together, and maybe you should move together to the parents. And then so that's not a that's not that's not a fun thing to do, and then especially during the lunar new year. So there are so many traditions, like if you marry, if you're a woman, you marry into this family, right? Like you need to start your duty, so it becomes a daughter-in-law. Daughter-in-law is a very important role in a family, you need to do so many things, and of course, nowadays the modern woman in Taiwan, no one wants to do this. They don't want to fall into that. No, so they say, Oh, hanging out with the in-laws all day. Yeah, that's that's sometimes terrible. For example, like the New Year's Eve and the first day, which is a New Year's Day, those two days. If you are a daughter-in-law, you need to stay with the family from your husband, not to spend time with your own family.

SPEAKER_01 39:36

Yeah, no bueno. No, okay, um, final question on Taiwan directly. Um, tourism in the country. Um, it feels like it would be a terrific place for tourism because there's all this nature. Like I said, you can surf on the East Coast, food is cheap and amazing. I could be wrong, but I think Taipei might be the most densely Michelin-starred restaurante place in the world, I read. So I don't know if that's total BS, but at least it it's an indication that there's a lot of really good food there. Obviously, there's the political insecurity, but I mean, apart from that, it feels like there's not much tourism and it could be a huge potential opportunity.

SPEAKER_03 40:18

It could be, but it's not yet there. And there are so many different reasons. I thought about it some time ago, but I think number one, they are not so many direct flights to a lot of big places. I mean, for example, like in Nordics, we don't have a direct flight, and they've been talking about it for years, but it couldn't really happen because it's not just economic issues, but also political issues as well.

SPEAKER_01 40:41

Because it's got gotta go, they want you to go through China, right?

SPEAKER_03 40:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially, I mean, there are always those kind of issues. So the red flight could be one of them. And then secondly, so I think it's just in terms of the marketing or promotion from the government, maybe that has not been the priority. And then also it used to be Taiwan used to be relying on the tourists from China so much, and then so you know, most of the marketing will whatsoever budget probably spent on that. Um, but um, but that's also a very risky thing, right? You know, if there's any political tension like it happened several times before, then China could just close that tie, and then all the shops, all the hotels rely on those tourists, they they just uh lose that kind of tie. So that's so true.

SPEAKER_01 41:31

That's such an interesting thing. It's just simple uh like second order consequences, isn't it? Yeah, that's simply the explanation for why there aren't all of these follow-on. And like now, like a COVID situation.

SPEAKER_03 41:43

Yeah I mean it's not of course it's a world phenomenon, so uh so every country suffers, but uh for Taiwan, it's still continuing to suffer on that because still people in China could not still cannot travel, right? So my god, yeah. So that is an issue. Um, so I I think Taiwan has a huge potential, and it's just a matter for the policy and so on.

SPEAKER_01 42:06

Yeah. Uh this might be a dumb question, but Taiwan doesn't have embassies, right?

SPEAKER_03 42:12

Uh we have still until today, I think we have 13 countries in the world that have the official relationship with Taiwan.

SPEAKER_01 42:23

With an ambassador in the country who represents Taiwan, not China.

SPEAKER_03 42:27

Who represents Republic of China, okay, which is Taiwan, and a People's Republic of China, which is the communist China. And that is actually it is a very ironic situation because it's down to our own constitution and our constitution of Republic of China. That constitution is almost impossible to amend or change. We try several times, and then also it's down to the our own identity. So, for example, like some people even they identify themselves as Taiwanese, but they feel like Taiwan is just the name of an island, and our official country name should be Republic of China, and that has a different kind of meaning when we when we when we see in Chinese in the writing, but in English, it feels like it's just China, right? So it's a it's so it got confused quite a lot. So yeah, so that's um yeah, that's something like how to change, basically.

SPEAKER_01 43:23

But the reason I I wanted to qualify that is because you might be, or at least you certainly are, right? You're you're Taiwan's man in Sweden. You know, like you're the you're the Swedish ambassador to Taiwan. I know.

SPEAKER_03 43:39

I am the only Taiwanese, letting know to to many people in Sweden. They say, Yeah, you are the only Taiwanese so far, I know.

SPEAKER_01 43:46

But also with the maybe the high status job and the biggest profile and involved in media and so forth, right?

SPEAKER_03 43:54

Maybe.

SPEAKER_01 43:55

Is that a pressure that you represent the great country of Taiwan to all Sweden? And the billions of people listening to this podcast.

SPEAKER_03 44:03

Yeah, if I think about it, like a lot of people only only know me as a Taiwanese, maybe even in their lifetime in Sweden, because we don't have that many Taiwanese here in Sweden. And then it's not just me, but also a lot of my Taiwanese fellows here. They feel like what we do, what we eat, what we uh what we like to do, they become a stereotype to love a sweet. But the truth is those Taiwanese, including me, who chose to live abroad, we are we are maybe a little bit different than the Taiwanese in Taiwan already. Right. But that it's basically maybe the same for every country in the world. I think so.

SPEAKER_01 44:40

Yeah, I really do think so. Okay. Um, I'm sorry if I took advantage of your time there, but I'm so fascinated in Taiwan and and I'm happy to talk about Taiwan all the time. But let's pivot to the other half of the conversation. Um, and obviously, if anything relevant to Taiwan comes up, then it'd be cool for you to bring it up and bring it in. But uh back to the timeline, why did you come to Sweden?

SPEAKER_03 45:04

Uh I came here to study. So I came here in 2011. I started uh a program in media communications in Stockholm University, master degree. Um after I graduated uh at that time, because I actually never planned, I want to stay in Sweden. My original plan was I came here, I spent two years to experience a different culture while getting the degree, and then I will go back to Taiwan. So my goal at that time was to become a journalist, become a political journalist. And then so that was my goal. So uh it was 2013 or 14. At that time, it was a very unsettled or very unstable time in Taiwan where we had a lot of different issues and then a lot of different protests every day to that government at that time. Um at that time I got an internship opportunity. So I thought about it as like, yeah, maybe I should stay in Sweden for a couple of years, then I could move to Taiwan. Maybe that will unlock different opportunities for me. And now where I am staying here for 11 years already. So why'd you stay? Well, I think I uh in the beginning, maybe I struggled a little bit about living here, but very quickly then I got used to the life here, and then I started to build my own network here, and uh like I said, I never worked in Taiwan. So my first job was already in Sweden, and then I but I fairly understand what the working culture in Taiwan is. So we often describe it's the culture of the kind of the America, American working culture combined with Japanese working culture. So sometimes it could be seen as the worst. Yeah, yeah, you need to respect you like a Japanese culture, so you respect your superiors, you need to respect your boss, you need to do everything they say while you still need to perform and work so hard like Americans in order to get a recognition and so and everything. So I thought maybe that was not the best thing I want to do. Right. Yeah. And then I um stayed here, and then I also, even after 11 years, I'm still quite fascinated by the Swedish culture, sometimes the Swedish values, although a lot of people argue like what is that, and is that still existing or not? So yeah. What are Swedish values? Um equality at the core of everything, and also the like everything must be equally distributed.

SPEAKER_01 47:43

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 47:43

Yeah, and it was a little bit modest, so you know you can't be the best, but you also don't want to be the worst, so it's in the middle, might be like the law gone. That term is also a little bit confusing for a lot of foreigners, just right, just right, and what is just right, but you need to understand by dealing with this person, you will understand what is just right or not right. Yeah, um, pretty much it, and then also I think it's there's a very separate art of being uh pass passively aggressive, you know, like everything. So, and actually as that's the art to master, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:27

Which is kind of hard for us. Um, I'm assuming the Taiwanese culture is a lot more direct. The Australian is obviously laden with irony and sarcasm, but you still feel like you can say what you want to other people, which is a big red flag here.

SPEAKER_03 48:42

It's a big red flag, and then actually that is something that is not 100% correct, but Taiwanese culture is a little bit we are so deeply influenced by Japanese. Okay. So sometimes we don't say what we want, but we uh we use different ways to get what we want, but we don't say it directly. But we let people kind of Swedish. Yeah, yeah. So in many ways, it's very much like Swedish. So maybe that's why I can actually establish Swedish culture quite quickly.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:12

And so it was journalism, your initial dream, or at least ambition. Um, now 11 years later, do you does does that ambition do you still practice it somehow? Is there still journalistic elements of your life?

SPEAKER_03 49:25

Yeah, so you know, when at least when I was in college or studying in journalism, and that at that time, it was the basically still the the time for the TV for for not radio anymore, basically TV news was the mainstream. Like everyone who watches TV, at least in Taiwan, we have I if I remember it correctly, we have an amazingly high uh TV number per capita, you know, like a in in I mean when I re if I could recall my when I was young, I mean we all our TV at home is always on since the morning until before we go to sleep. And then it's a um small island in terms of the Asian population, 22 million is not a big population in Asia, but at that time we had around 12 news channels broadcasting news 24 hours. I mean, why do you need so many news channels? Well, you are a small island, you have 12 channels, news channels purely for news. So um so at last time it was still a TV era. Uh but of course everything changed after social media and after iPhone and after everything. So nowadays you don't really need to be working in the TV industry to be a journalist. So um that has always been my dream, but instead I started different things. So I think in in 2017 or 18, I started to um at first I created a Facebook page, so I document my observations about Sweden, especially but not just on the tourism or culture, I'm more on the politics, international relations, and then also letting people understand why Sweden is Sweden today, why Swedes do what Swedes are doing, and so on. And then in 2000 and 2020, I started a podcast to even take that conversation to a deeper level. And um and because I mean the the thing is there are not so many Taiwanese in the Nordics in total, not just in Sweden. And then still in Taiwan, when they talk about Sweden, they refer as Nordic, Northern Europe. They don't really see the difference between the different countries in Nordics. Um so when uh when there's anything happened in Sweden or in the Nordics in a wider term, um, the Taiwanese media, of course, they don't have any correspondent in Taiwan in here. So they will start to search online and they find me, and then so I start to sometimes provide some information or news, or sometimes like video clips. Um so in a way I am doing a little bit of a journalist job after 11 years.

SPEAKER_01 52:06

And that's also now you were just telling me before, uh, it's start manifested into a book.

SPEAKER_03 52:13

Yeah, so I um at least trying to write a book, and that is a commitment I really need to make. But it's been the idea has been there for three years, and then um already some three years ago, already some Taiwanese publishers uh reach out to me saying, Are you interested in writing a book and so on? But at that time I didn't really make up my mind until recently. I feel I feel like maybe I should do it because I've been writing different columns in Taiwanese papers for some time, and also I have my own um Facebook page where I publish a lot of things. So maybe it's time to really document them down into a book. Because if I look at the the books in in in Taiwan or written in Chinese about Nordics, quite a lot of them are basically praising how great a country is, how wonderful the system is, how amazing life is. But that is partly true, I'm not denying it, but people really need to see why it is why is Sweden Sweden today. So have they thought about, like I mentioned before, the high tax, have they thought about if you want to leave work at 5 p.m., if everyone wants, then everyone should be entitled to that, right? That means the doctors want to want to leave earlier, the nurses want to leave earlier, not like in Taiwan, they are available 24-7. And uh people talk about wow, it's very um equal here in terms of everything, even including education. So, as a Taiwanese parent, have you thought about your kid who will come to you saying, I want to be an artist? And most of the parents will freak out, maybe. So those kind of things. So people really need to understand, and then quite a lot of time in Taiwan, sometimes some politicians talk about maybe we should really learn from the Nordics, maybe we should really implement their uh system, and that is a that would be the worst idea ever. You couldn't copy and paste anything because you need to understand Sweden is Sweden today because of its unique culture and unique history, and then also the unique way of working on everything, and that doesn't apply on Taiwan. Taiwan needs to find our own way to deal with the social challenges. If you think other countries are successful, you need to understand that you need to firstly see how much contribution, even sacrifices they've made in order to achieve what they are today. And if we are not ready to make that, or if we don't have the capability to do that, why do we want to do it? We need to find out our own way. Each country is so unique.

SPEAKER_04 54:49

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:50

So my book will be about those kind of observations and then making people more understand Sweden. And my goal to that book is to make people in Taiwan or make other Chinese readers to not be jealous of Sweden anymore because we we choose to be here for a reason, and then a lot of things are amazing, but the reason I've been here for 11 years, still counting, it's because I fairly understand how it works in this society, and I hope people really understand that.

SPEAKER_01 55:20

And there's also the um like other things, caricatures, uh rep reputations of the Nordics that aren't necessarily true, like the myth of Scandinavian socialism. Oh, yeah, for example, you know, it's not socialist, very far from socialist. In fact, I think Sweden has one of the highest uh billionaires per capita in Europe, exactly, and that's actually true.

SPEAKER_03 55:40

A lot of people really don't believe that, but I mean, that's the data, and that's true.

SPEAKER_01 55:45

Yeah, I mean, very far from socialist, and uh, but also amazing. You know, we we we do live here, don't we? I think this is just an exceptional country, and I really do love it so much. Um, but it is natural once when you go to a new place is you see all of the flaws before you start to really appreciate the good stuff. Yeah, uh, and that does there is that like threshold of time you need to put in before uh you can start really bathing in that good stuff. Um, but maybe a little bit about the because you write about and as well, um, maybe you want to see where we are and what your job is and the business you work for, yeah, as a way for that to then inform climate tech, venture capital, entrepreneurship in Sweden.

SPEAKER_03 56:31

Cool. Um, first of all, I have a background in marketing and PR, so I've been doing marketing for different corporations like Ericsson, Telato, and before my current job, I was at Amazon Web Services for around two and a half years or three years, also doing marketing. And um actually before my current job, I've never really directly done anything about startups or startup investments, and um uh my current company is Norskan or Nor in Swedish. So we are is we're a non-profit foundation, but we devote ourselves to help impact startups, which is a differ quite a not a really new term, but still a very popular term. So those startups, they their business models are purely based on solving the world's challenges, such as climate change, such as healthcare crisis, and uh many more different things, food allocation and clean water and so on. And the reason they need to be helped or they deserve more attention is traditionally investors don't really favor those kind of startups. As an investor, for example, today, if you have one million dollars, you can invest in any startups you want in the world. Would you want to invest in the next TikTok or next Facebook, or would you want to invest in a startup helping or having a technology to help people in Africa for clean waters? And there's no right and wrong because traditionally, as an investor, you are chasing the highest return of investments, and that is totally right. But what we try to do is to prove that impact and revenue can actually go hand in hand. And then the reason that we can start is actually because we are in Sweden, which is tied back to what Sweden is unique about. Um so if we are talking about starlight investment, and of course the most successful city in Europe will be London, and that has not been that has not changed for the past 10 years. That will probably not change in the next 10 years. London attracts all the talent, capital, and investment and everything else. But if we look at the impact investment, that means the investments go into the impact businesses doing actually good work. Sweden is still the number one and will probably still be number one for many years to come. And then that is very unique about Sweden. And then also think about everyone, probably also knows that um in terms of the unicorns, which means the star value is one billion uh dollars, of course, Silicon Valley has the highest amount of that. But if you look at it per capita, then Sweden or Stockholm specifically is probably the highest uh in the world, which is an amazing statistic. Which is amazing because I mean considering we only have 10 million people in this country and then uh two or three million in Stockholm only, but producing so many brands that people know. Just maybe already people are listening on this podcast on Spotify, and that was an example, right? And then a lot of people are wondering why, and I've been also very curious to find out. But I think there are different things, but the first thing comes to my mind, and also it's been verified by I listened to a speech from the government of the city of Stockholm. They also mentioned social welfare. A lot of people didn't think about it, but you know, creating a starlight is a very risky business. More than 80% of these starlights fail, anyways. So if you don't have this kind of social safety net to really protect you, why would you want to take this high-risk investment in your life where you will put in all your money, all your friends and family money, but everything will be gone maybe overnight. But since we have the social welfare, you don't really need to worry that too much. So that's why startups keep coming in Sweden or in Stockholm. And then uh, of course, there are a lot of the startup programs or investment programs or loans, really good loans coming from the government, because the government really wants to encourage people doing that. And then another thing that uh I didn't think about, but actually it was probably true, is in why Sweden is so tech, you know, like a lot of tech companies. Because in the 90s, maybe 1994, 95, Sweden as a government um actually uh subsidized people to buy computers. At that time, like not everyone has computers at home, not to mention notebook, no one had notebook at home at that time. But Sweden subsidized people when you want to buy computers. So, and uh that probably inspired a lot of the early tech entrepreneurs, so they could actually start to really use computers and think about what problems they can use technology to solve. And um, and uh so Sweden catched the trend very early on. And what we are talking about now is Sweden maybe is also catching another trend for the next decade, which is the impact investment or green investment, because Sweden now is coming very, very early, and then actually a lot of the businesses in Sweden, you know, you need to have that building into your core of your business because there's also a survey on the young talent in Sweden, or maybe only for Stockholm, about how important it is for them to choose a business that cares about the social impact for as their employer, and then the the result is surprisingly high.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:18

Yeah, they they feel it's the most important thing above location, above everything, I think.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:22

Yeah. And the reason that those young talent could feel that is because I mean, of course, everyone wants to earn money, right? You want to earn a salary, but maybe in Sweden that doesn't that is not the most important thing anymore because number one, we have a very flat organization, and then the the salary from the the basic employee to the top management, it's probably a gap is not too high. I mean, maybe the gap is very, very wide in other countries, but not really in Sweden in in many ways. So that's number one, and also the more you earn the more tax you pay, anyways. But people really want to have a meaningful job. They want to know their employers are not at least not hurting the environment, but rather doing really good to the society and they contribute back to the society. So a lot of businesses understand if they don't do this, they cannot really survive, and that's very uh unique in Sweden now because a lot of people uh businesses are thinking about this.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:19

Yeah. Um, what signals do you see for the future looking great for Sweden? You mentioned there that they maybe are catching a trend again. What are the signals you see that suggest the future will be really good? Um for Stockholm specifically, I should say.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:36

Yeah. So um, for example, like now, we are in the middle of the economic crisis globally and um but la so while we also talk about it in our company maybe a few weeks weeks ago, the world's challenges, the world's problems will not stop because we have a high interest rate or because we have a high energy price. And in fact, actually, it is this kind of the crisis times in the times of crisis that we really need to look at how do we change that, how do we transform the way we live today. Uh, for example, like energy prices high, so that makes all the green energy more competitive than ever, for example. And uh not to mention uh all the different challenges in the world. So I think Sweden is catching a trend of um seeing the biggest challenges in the world also are the biggest opportunities that people can catch. So, you know, uh traditionally when you talk about those kinds of impact, social impact, you always refer to those organizations as almost nonprofit or charity. Yeah, they are doing amazing work. But what's my share? If I invest in them, that's basically a donation. I don't get anything back. But now, especially looking five years back until now, even in the future, there's actually a really good chance that the investors can actually get a lot of financial returns while enabling a lot of tech startups to help into solve the problems. So in Sweden, we've already seen a lot. For example, like the biggest closing brand is working with a startup who helping to source really good material that is 100% traceable and also that is really environmental friendly.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:22

Is this HM?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:23

Uh yeah, it's HM. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:24

Uh explain that more. That that's that's an incredibly exciting thing. I imagine terribly complex as well. It's really complex. Yeah um dirtiest and grubbiest in the world, I imagine.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:37

Yeah, but it's a startup, it's a small startup. Now maybe they are more like a scale up now. It's called material exchange. That's the name of the startup.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:45

I have heard of them, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:46

Yeah, so they are basically working day and night on this, and HM is just uh one of their many customers. So they are on a mission to really totally revolutionize the fashion industry in terms of how they Source, how they use the fabrics, how they use the textures, and so on. So that's just one example, but also there are quite a lot of examples about small startups who are maybe doing energy grid, or maybe they are just um doing energy distribution and they could actually influence quite a lot of big power startups, uh power corporations, I mean, in Sweden in the world. So the trend, at least I've seen seeing is a lot of big enterprises in Sweden are willing to work with small startups if they have really good ideas that can transform their business. Because I mean traditionally, if you you know, if you really want to do a so-called green transition in your business, it requires so much investment, especially you probably need to totally transform your RD department to really find out what's the best for you. And then during that period, you probably will also uh need to take a lot of financial loss because you are doing transformation. What if there's a startup who already has the technology ready and then you can just plug in and play? Even you can acquire that startup to become a part of your RD department. Um, so that saves more time and money, and um, so that's the trend we've been seeing. And I must say, at least in Taiwan, I haven't seen this trend at all. I mean, maybe it's happening, but it's not at a scale of Taiwan. Still, a lot of big enterprises are very proud. They think they are still the biggest ones in the world. So they don't really want to change in that way. But that probably also down to the Swedish DNA, though. It's uh it's a little bit humble and it's and also I think the reason that Sweden can be so innovative in many ways is because there's a general curiosity from the people of Sweden somehow. People are very curious about new things and they are willing to try out new things, and maybe it's also the reason that why Sweden can abandon so many traditional values very quickly and embrace the new kind of progressive values, if you may.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:06

What what is it that makes them willing to try new things? Um, I have a theory that it's because they're so trend following, if they just see a few people do it, they immediately get validation that this is a good thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:23

It's like when you see people queuing up on the streets, people, oh what are they queuing up for? And let's cue up and find out.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:29

Yeah, that's the joking sweet and it's where it's and there was it was so funny. I was talking to this um this person about this, and she's lived here for 15 years or something, and she said, one summer, all of a sudden, it was fashionable for men to wear red pants. Oh, geez, and so she thought it was so funny that just because it became you know fashionable, right? It it if you weren't wearing the red pants, somehow you weren't up to the trend, which for me, care, you know, I don't give a fuck. And in Australia, this this like hive mind ideal uh idea doesn't catch on, but here it does, to the point where it's almost like someone's taking the piss and they made red pants popular, anyway. That's my theory for why they might be so good at trialling things. Um, yeah, because the yeah, but um what what do you think? Why is that?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:25

Well, I I thought about it actually, um, there's a book, but I haven't really read it that much. It's called Swedish Mentality. So it's a book, I believe written by a professor, but it was very early on, like in the 90s, and so it using a almost a scientific way to examine the Swedish personality and so on. So I think he mentioned something like um also traditionally Sweden is not a very religious country, it's not religious at all. Um, and that probably plays a really important factor because you don't have those kind of um limitations posted by religions. So you can basically be yourself and then you can try out new things. May probably that it's built in in the mentality, I think. So that's a cultural thing, so it enables Swedes to uh think maybe outside of the box, but maybe in other ways, many ways, Sweden is still very within the box, but yeah, but in a way, like they don't feel that they have obligations to not do something. Um, so that's probably very liberal in that way. And then I think the other thing is maybe it's the equality itself. So when you feel like everyone is equal, even if you were my manager, but you would still treat me as a peer, not really a manager to employee, that kind of thing. So that means everyone can actually voice your own voice without any concerns, without concern about oh, what would you think about me if I say this? But no, I this is my thought, and then we are equal. If you can talk for five minutes, then it's my turn. I can also talk to five minutes. And then if you can walk on this side of the street, okay, I want to do that as well because we are equal. So everyone, maybe in a way, get a fair amount of a chance to try out new things, and they are not afraid of the consequences. And um, yeah, maybe that's it. And um also it talks uh it's probably there's another kind of story or theory that I once read somewhere else, talking about in the Viking times when you are all on the boat, and uh since Sweden traditionally was not a very rich country, it became really rich, I mean after World War II, right? So, but it was like when they were living like a pirate at that time on the sea, uh everyone is equally important on the boat because everyone needs to play a role to do a job to make everyone survive. So probably hear that story when you after dinner, when you all sit in the group and then in the round uh table, whatsoever, and then you only have one bottle of the wine for everyone, like 10 people, you start to pass along the wine for everyone to drink, and that's where they say where the law gone philosophy is coming from. If you drink too much, then the next person will not have the drink. If you drink too little, probably you don't feel you enjoy yourself. So you really need to really master the art of the law gone. Drink just a little and then let everyone decide what do they want to drink. So la they say the equality culture is coming from that kind of a time until now. But that is just a story, you don't know what it is.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:41

It's fun to at least point to things like that as explanation, although there is so much um complacency and hindsight bias where you're like, oh, of course that's the reason why. You know, but um you you have such a such a well reflected take on the Swedes, which I I find extremely interesting, um, because I guess you must interact with way more immigrants than I do working here. But I mean in my office there is one other Brit and then 60 Swedes, you know, and all my friends are Swedish and you know, so um my experience in this country's actually been quite an isolated one in terms of um you know sharing the immigrant experience, right? Um but maybe is it a consequence of you being around so many other immigrants and talking about this all the time, or is it just a curious anthropological question that you like to ask?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:38

Um do you mean like uh what is the experience of yeah, not that more so um why or how do you have such a sophisticated take on this? Um I think it's really down to the personal level. Number one, I really love to observe people. I have a I maybe I mean, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:02

Yeah, well, sorry to interrupt you, but there's a there's an amazing quote in uh the talented Mr. Ripley, uh, where they're sitting at a cafe and they're just watching, there's people watching, you know, sitting back in the espresso, and it's like um you know, it does something to your view of the world just watching people walk by.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:23

Yeah, and I really love to observe that sometimes on Metro, I don't play my phone, but I look at people, what they are doing in the Metro train, and start to really imagine like maybe this is his life, maybe it's her life. So I like to observe people and then I am always very curious, maybe. So I really want to find out why is this, why is that? And um yeah, so I read a lot, but more specifically, I try to find the answers to the questions I I have. Um, but also I think um when I was in Taiwan, because since I'm Taiwanese anyway, so my senses of observation or or curiosity was not so strong. It was not until I moved to Sweden, I mean, I became somewhat different here in this country. And then add me some more perspectives and also more inspirations and then more maybe want to understand people's lives and then different things happening in this country because still to me uh sometimes I feel like I'm still in a very foreign country. If I live here for 11 years, there are always new things for me to learn, and also I think um when you really start to really pay attention or pay actually efforts into learning a language that even unlocks more curiosity, like aha, this is what it is, and so on. So, yeah, it's down to the personal level, but um I think it's also because uh yeah, as a personal level, I'm a person who likes really networking with people and then really understand their their story. So, you know, like interacting with so many Swedes, but also people who moved here and also maybe the second generation of immigrants, their experience is also very fascinating because they technically they are a Swede, they see the SL as a suite, but they have a different cultural background and so on.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:17

Yeah, yeah. Look, we've been going for almost an hour and a half. I've got more questions for you. Are you okay? Yeah, sure. Okay, cool. Yeah, um, let's bring it back to the the venture capital, North Skin, um, and as well business, entrepreneurship in Stockholm. So it's kind of a land of paradoxes, you know, you've got hyper-individualistic, but they also have this group hive mind that we spoke about. There's this work-life balance, but at the same time, they're enormously productive. Uh they're crazy high taxes, but at the same time, there is just business after business that is exceptional within its own industry. You know, we've got IKEA, we've got Saab, Volvo, North Vault, Um, Spotify. Yeah. I think, I think, um, fuck, what was the before Zoom? Skype. Skype. Skype. Um uh Kalana. Yeah, right. So it's just business after business that is like almost industry defining from this tiny populace of 10 million people. Yeah. Um, so yeah, what the what's going on?

SPEAKER_03 1:17:29

Well, I think, like I said before, I think Sweden catched the trend of tech early on when a lot of still a lot of businesses in different other countries are still very traditionally based, or so on. So Sweden catch the trend of the tech. And then even later, I mean after they subsidize people's computer and whatsoever, and then you know, in the education system, now school children can learn coding and that becomes a very important thing that Sweden is doing. But I think uh now, if I think about it, also another important thing is they make they made English as a language as a mandatory subject at school. So you can fail on any other subject, but you must learn Swedish and English. Oh, really? And I think very early on they realized Sweden is a small country. Um, you know, temp it was maybe only 7 million in the time we're talking about. So it must go out, it must have a global reach. So I think nowadays most of the startups, not 100% maybe, but most of the startups, they don't enforce the Swedish market. They when they create a startup, from its creation, they already look at a global market. They never want to settle for just the Nordic market. And now it's a fundamental difference. For example, like I uh have always also been talking to a lot of startups or startup organizations in Taiwan. But what I see is the the the market size, the envision is that yeah, we can just focus on Taiwan now and then let's see how that is in the future. I said, no, but that's not really the that's not really the best way. Because if you already limit yourself when you create this, then you will see all the limitations coming along. For example, like when you create your infrastructure for the technology, if you only aim for the Taiwanese market, how about the scalability? Have you thought about could you maybe you only want to serve one million people in Taiwan, but suddenly you get a huge order from elsewhere and then you need to serve uh 10 million people? Could you do that? Then that comp completely ruins your business, right? And then so but that's also kind of a mindset that is different. I mean, Sweden has been very global because a lot of kids they watch um American TV and since they are young, and then they those that don't have this um the doubling, right? They have only a subtitle and so on, and they learn English and they now have a global mindset. Yeah, and that enables a lot of tech entrepreneurs to really global.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:01

All right. You mentioned material exchange before. Um, we also rattled off a number of very large company names. But what about businesses you want to give attention to uh that are just amazing impact startups?

SPEAKER_03 1:20:16

Well, um let's take it this way. So a lot of impact startups we see, at least in Sweden, are focusing on healthcare. And that's understandable. I mean, because in Europe or in the more developed countries, healthcare has always been an issue. Either it's uh the distribution of the resources or the quality or the accessibility of healthcare. So you see a lot of e-housecare startups. And then more specifically, I think Sweden has a huge potential. It's so-called the FemTech, the feminine tech, fertility and so on. Um, there are quite a lot of really good femtech companies in in Sweden, and quite a lot of land being evaluated by investors. They think it could be completely a world-changing solution and so on.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:02

Well, for example.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:03

Yeah, for example, like uh so there are some startups, they are doing like a fertility, um, so uh most of the models they experience depression after giving birth, and not just the models, also the fathers, but there's still no really good way to connect those models, and then you know, they they could be just a very easily categorized into, you know, it's just a depression, and everyone has that. But so and actually a solution could be very simple. It could be just an app and to create a forum for all the models, but also connects the professional healthcare uh people or connects with a therapist, and then so it's like a one-stop app where you can find all the knowledge and all the healthcare needed help and all everything together. So those kind of things, I mean, uh it's the technology or the way of solving the problem is very simple. But the way that the reason that it's not big or it's not started is probably because people have not paid enough attention to that. And Sweden as a country of equality, I mean, catch this catch this trend early on. Yeah, that's true. So I mean, that but the entire healthcare category has been very big. And then I think the next one, Sweden is really good at also the climate tech. And of course, that's understandable because Sweden really wants to solve the climate challenge, maybe not anymore with the current government, but still a long-term goal. That is still Sweden wants to become uh carbon neutral. I mean, very soon, right? So a lot of startups also in this space, but it's not, I would say it's not super unique because a lot of countries are also doing the same, right? I mean Sweden is just a part of it, but maybe Sweden is doing a little bit better than than others. So but I also want to see because things at Norwegian, we also have the um the a an um office or a a hub in uh East Africa. So a lot of startups are doing exceptional things there, and then when you refer like impact starts to them, they really don't understand because what they are doing is just solving problems, but per the so say the European standard, that's the impact thing because you are solving the actual challenges and so on. So I think there's a so e interestingly, even when you talk about impact, it really refers to different things in on different continents. And uh also reminds us that it's such a quiet privilege to live in Sweden or in Europe and then still refer to things as impacts, because maybe one day, I mean, we don't need to talk about impact anymore because that is already begging everything you do as a core of your business. And um, even you are making a car or baking bread or making clothes, you should think about your responsibility. And if all the companies can do that, then we maybe I mean new challenges will always occur, right? Even with solving this challenge, but it's more the mentality that you need to think about think about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:01

And to elaborate on that, there's you said in the future maybe all um of the businesses impact will be baked into it. Uh something you said earlier was this idea that uh it the the the sort of time horizon for your return on investment for say investing in the next TikTok is a lot more reliable and a lot more short term, whereas your time horizon for investing in like a water purification or something is significantly more risky, but also a much longer time horizon. I'm thinking about geothermal energy here. Um, Sweden happens to be a really good place for it. Surprise, surprise. Um, but it's risky and it's very expensive and it's got a very long time horizon. However, with impact businesses, if they do hit, they're so universally applicable and so important that they could also be the most um, they could also deliver the highest return on investment.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:57

Yeah, exactly. And that's that's what we really believe in. And then, you know, we I mean the goal is if one starter or one business, or maybe they become an enterprise, it can save one billion life, and that's amazing, and that's actually doable because if you have a really outstanding solution, you've got enough talent, enough capital, enough support, and then that's it's doable. But what we are seeing today is, I mean, number one, I mean, maybe talent nowadays, they really want to work for this, but still the investment part, because uh according to our our data, and which is also taking into all the different research and investigations, so less than 1% of the global capital goes to impact businesses. Less than 1%. So even if we are doing very well in Sweden, even if we've been doing exceptional in North Korea, globally, I mean let's face it, it's still not enough. There's still so much to do. But that also means for a lot of investors or for just the regular citizens, you know, they are there it's a huge potential to make because we are not just there yet. There are still a lot of things that we can do, and um even if it raised to maybe five percent in the next year, that is already a huge improvement, and we really want to see that happen. At least I want to see that happen, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:17

Cool. All right, so you mentioned um postnatal depression, material exchange looking at supply chains. You mentioned water purification. What's another great exciting business that you can point to that is working here in Oakland?

SPEAKER_03 1:26:32

Wow, that's uh let me think about it. There are um some examples.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:39

Yeah, um maybe it's an unfair question because you know all these people. So just speak generally about the industry then.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:46

I think another thing we can look at is probably food tech. So, you know, um I say um, I mean, everyone knows that we consume too much food than we need, or it's in Europe or more developed countries, we have the food waste problems. And then also we according to the population growth, we probably won't have any farmable land very soon because we need more plants or places for people to live. So that poses a challenge, like either from the farmers' industry, but also from a more sustainable way. So there are different food tech. I mean, simply it could even be just um vegan food and so on, but also like the way how we farm, or maybe like vertical farming, and I think that sh is actually very important because that has been a challenge, but I think that has not got enough attention because I mean, of course, there are so many different challenges. We sorry we want to, I mean, so one by one one at a time, but climate change has taken all the attention and then food tech or those kind of farmable land problems and also like a food waste problem, that's also very huge, and then The reason probably it hasn't been taken care of so much is because it's um each country, I mean, the situation is so unique, but also thinking about the policies and everything. So it's hard to have a global scalable solution like once for for all. So that's that's probably why. But it is still a big area to solve.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:20

Yeah. Um I think I could be wrong, but again, a bad statistic to have. Sweden might be the biggest food wasters in the world per capita, in terms of the percentage of food you buy at the grocery store that ends up in the bin.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:34

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:35

And then also because of the crazy high standards they have for food in Sweden, a lot of the food that comes across the border doesn't pass the regulations, and so it's then thrown away.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:44

Or the high hygiene standard posted by the government or officials that for running a restaurant you need to throw away a lot of food. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:52

But that's why you have those kind of sometimes. My God, it's I know.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:56

So let's think about it. I mean, a lot of the people are still suffering from not owning the food, then that's crazy. But that's probably why some stallers are karma. You know, they are just um, you know, creating a solution that enables restaurants to sell the almost expiring food in a cheaper price. So it solves the three problems, right? For the restaurant, earn more revenue for consumers, pay less, and for the food waste problem, it's gone. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:20

Alright, then in that case, we'll finish on these two questions that I try to ask every guest. What is a country that you're particularly bullish on?

SPEAKER_03 1:29:29

I mean, if I say Taiwan, and that's cruel to cliche, but you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:34

Yeah, but why not? Fuck cliche is our your Taiwanese, you love your nation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why not? Say Taiwanese.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:43

I mean, I think Taiwan still has a lot of potentials to play important role in the world from you know, when we see COVID from the healthcare system, from uh the potential of the nature in the tourism, and uh also from its unique position in the global supply chain for semiconductors and everything. So um, of course, there's always a political challenge, but probably that makes Taiwan more unique than ever because we hold attention from the world right now. So, yeah, I would say Taiwan then.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:13

Cool, I love it. And finally, if you could witness a conversation between any two people of history, dead or alive, no language barrier. So listen to a podcast. Who do you listen to? A conversation from those people.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:29

Oh those questions are very tricky.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:44

There's no wrong answers.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:55

Queen Elizabeth, the Queen, about what she thinks about the latest season of Le Crome. I love that. Okay, because it's very controversial, and uh I'm pr I don't think she will like it, but maybe she likes it, but she couldn't say, and then you never really know what she thinks about.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:14

So Okay, I love it. I love it. All right then. Uh well, sir, David, thank you so much for giving me all this time, being so generous with your answers. Thank you so having me.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:26

Thank you.