125: Bolor Lkhaajav | It's Mongolia All The Way Down

🎙️: https://atlasgeographica.com/bolor-lkhaajav/

Bolor Lkhaajav is a researcher specialising in Mongolia, Northeast Asia, East Asia, and the Americas.

Her research interests cover foreign policy, security, governance, economy, and social issues. Bolor’s research and writing has been published by many amazing outlets and she is a researcher and writer for the diplomat.

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• 00:00 – Introduction.
• 01:40 – Kind Words From Jack Weatherford & Genghis Khan
• 06:34 – Mongolia In Bolor’s Words (Mongolian Scorecard)
• 32:41 – Horses, Beauty & Mongolian Culture
• 43:56 – Modernity For Mongolia
• 54:45 – Alcoholism
• 1:08:05 – The Role Of Men & Woman
• 1:20:44 – Immigration, Demographics & The Future
• 1:29:10 – China
• 1:40:10 – Bolor Lkhaajav Book
• 1:41:40 – Country Bolor Is Bullish On
• 1:44:42 – Conversation Between Any Two People

🍻☕: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/ryanhogg

Curious Things Mentioned During The Episode

• Jack Weatherford – Genghis Khan & The Making Of The Modern World
• Charlie Walker – Adventures Through Mongolia & Across The World

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

The person with who I'm about to speak with comes from one of the greatest cultures on this fine planet of ours. Ever since Jack Weatherford's Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World and Dan Carlin's Wrath of the Khans, I've been deeply fascinated by pretty much everything Mongolian. And the person on this podcast today exhibits the perfect worldview to help us understand actually what is Mongolia, what it is to be Mongolian, and what is Mongolia's culture. Now, forgive me, Bolo, for this pronunciation, but the following is a conversation with Balor Lakajov. And she is a researcher specializing in Mongolia, Northeast Asia, East Asia, and the Americas. Her research interests cover foreign policy, security, governance, economy, and social issues. Bollard's research and writing have been published by many, many amazing outlets, and she's a researcher and writer for The Diplomat. This podcast is about Mongolia. I think the second half of the conversation, specifically about culture, modernity, and alcoholism, is my personal favourite, but as well, we cover mining, Genghis Khan, horses, sovereign wealth funds, and all the rest that goes into making up a culture and an economy. Now this podcast took me five hours to put together, but will only take you how many? Five seconds to review. So therefore do the right thing and pump that good, good juice into the algorithm. That is achieved via swiping up your phone right now and then pumping into an app a five-star night review. Finally, you're all an absolute bunch of legends, and with no further ado, here is the great Mongolian Bolor Lakajov. To start, I thought I it would be nice to share with you something that uh a recipient of the Order of the Polar Star, Jack Weatherford, author of uh Genghis Khanna, the making of the modern world, said about you. Um I wrote to him and said, Hey, I'm interviewing this person about Mongolia. Could you please um advise me or give me some questions that you think would be interesting to say? And he responded, because he's just such a sweet, lovely man. He responded, I'm perhaps too starstruck to think of a question. Such a bright and courageous young Mongolian, I'm sure you'll do fine.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Wow. I'm very flattered. Jock Weatherfer is, you know, he's very popular and he's one of the one of the leading scholars, enthusiasts of Mongolian culture, society, and history, he's he's very well respected. I think everybody in Mongolian studies know who he is. You know, if you don't, then I'll be saying to them you're not a Mongolian scholar, because he wrote so many books and his scholarship is very, very well respected. So I'm very honored. Thank you, Jack.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

So even in um the Mongolian language or your own study of your own history, and Genghis Khan, obviously, he's a Chingis Khan, there's a huge role in that. Um Jack Weatherford's work is still the authority that you that you go to. Doesn't matter that it's an American voice behind it.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

I don't think so, because you have you have a number of scholarly works or historical records that are written in multiple languages, right? So when I was growing up, I was taught by my own Mongolian language. But there's Chinese version, there's Persian version, and Jack Weatherford is just one of the persons who took it all out in English language, right? And you can assume how many readership that reaches once you translate something that's only written in Mongolian language, for one. For two, is it's also a perspective, right? Mongolians, we see Chingishang as different than foreigners might see him, whether it's a historical figure or somebody who created democracy, or somebody just went around and killed a bunch of people and expanded his own clan. I was talking to now this happened in undergraduate studies, and the guy who I was talking to was in master's degrees, you know, pursuing political science, and he was really into Mongolian history, not just Mongolian, but like Asian history. And the way he saw Chingis Hang was even though he had such an ambition to unite the Mongols, he didn't have a manpower or a specific philosophy that united those people, that was his downfall, right? So I think a lot of people have their own perspectives of Qingisang, and Mongolians obviously, even after so many thousands of years, we still worship him as if someone who is alive, and a lot of people are like, why do you still talk about Chinggishang? Goodness. You know, so I think it's definitely I think it's more for the perspective and as it should be.

SPEAKER_00 5:10

You said that Mongolians see him very differently to the rest of the world. How is that?

SPEAKER_02 5:18

Well, for one, Mong uh Chingisang had taken over half the world. You know, and you look at modern-day Mongolia where only 3.3 million population were landlocked between Russia and China. So if you look at it from comparing what he has accomplished to now, is in a way we have shrunk, right? This is one. For two, I think it has become more of a symbol, symbolic person to look up to. Like Chinggishan did this way back when when we didn't have technology or anything, so why can't we do this now, right? So it's a great symbolism for Mongolians to push forward to do something great. And yeah, it's also a business, you know. You have Chinggisang cups, you have Chinggisang, what is it? Um everything.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

Vodka.

SPEAKER_02 6:18

Yeah, vodka, exactly. They even have gold in it. You know, you can see the gold or silver flowing in it. It's so pretty. You drink it, but you want to keep the bottle as a souvenir or some sort.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

Alright, so introduce us to Mongolia in your own words. Um, but then we have together a list of uh points that I think make for a nice scorecard of a country.

SPEAKER_02 6:45

Yeah. Well, uh Mongolia has been around for a while, whether you talk about the Mongolian people or the culture, uh as of today, Mongolia has reached 3.3 million population. We're not that big. And we have 21 provinces. Mongolia has been a democratic country since 1991, following the fall of the Soviet Union. One of the mistaken things that I have noticed when talking to people is that they see Mongolia as one of the 16 republics of the Soviet Union. Mongolia was never part of the Soviet Republic. We were always an independent country, although we had a lot of influence by the Soviet Union. And yeah, so 70 years of Soviet history, uh strong relations with Soviet republics, strong relations with China. We've been to two world wars. You know, they think world war just skipped Mongolia right over. Nope, we were in it. You know, we fought the Japanese. Um, I would say Mongolia is a modern country. We have you expect to go to Mongolia and you start seeing, you know, they think they see just camels running around, sheeps and yaks and horses, but that is not the case. You go to a countryside, obviously you'll see those, but you go to a capital city, you go to the different cities around provinces, you will see a modern society. Um, I think that's though these are the very, very basic one. Then you go into different layers of the Mongolian society, you'll see all sorts of issues, right? Developmental issues, mining for one, corruption, or on the better side, you'll see educated youths, you know. They're Mongolians are very educated. Um yeah, and maybe if you ask me specific questions, I could give you a better answer. You know, there are so many topics that we could cover.

SPEAKER_00 8:50

Do you speak particularly good English for Mongolian?

SPEAKER_02 8:55

I think so.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

Okay. I mean, uh maybe I I'm asking you to uh I you're too humble to say yes or no, but maybe compare it to another country in terms of English as a second language literacy.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

Well, I think well, you may be surprised, but I actually failed English when I was first learning English. I failed English 101 and I didn't like it. I was like, you know what, this is not the language for me. Because you know, I grew up learning Mongolian and Mandarin Chinese. Mandarin Chinese is my second language because I went to a private school. And when I came to the States, I was like, you know what, this is not my language. So I kind of give up English for like at least six, seven months, but then I realized, you know what, I have to learn this, right? But I think in terms of it depends on who are you comparing it to. They are Mongolians that are fluent, but there are Mongolians that are really good at reading and writing, but they don't have the accent down. Or you compare my English to like somebody from let's say Chinese person who has a really strong Chinese accent, then obviously my English will be better.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

And is uh Russian or Mandarin more common of a second language?

SPEAKER_02 10:13

In Mongolia?

SPEAKER_00 10:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:15

Yes, definitely. Definitely.

SPEAKER_00 10:17

Which one?

SPEAKER_02 10:18

Um well it actually, you know, that's a great question because my parents' generations are all fluent in Russian. Like my parents are fluent, their friends are fluent, you know, the nineteen the people that were born in the nineteen sixties and seventies are all fluent, and Mongolia has private institutions that both teach Russian and Chinese. So I think it's typical, but I think after 1997, the education system has really grown into different languages, right? So there are so many people who speaks German, English, even French. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

Okay, so uh specific question. We'll tie in culture and mining here, um, because to answer what maybe the religion is of Mongolia, I was reading that there was uh one of the largest protests towards mining in Mongolia was the sort of old sacred pagan idea of not harming the land. Right? You have to return to the land what you take from it, and obviously mining, you can't do that. So to answer the mining question with the cultural question with the religious question, how it all fits together.

SPEAKER_02 11:38

So Mongolians are very what's the word? Animalistic, right? So you have you have the nomadic you have the nomadic society that have lived on a certain land for centuries when without the development of really the urban or urbanization or moving into the capital, so the lifestyle is dwelt in the mountains, the rivers, the animals within, right? The rocks. So I think when you bring a capitalism into and put it into practice, people don't like it. Whether it's from superstitious reason or they just don't want their lands to be destroyed. I'm gonna give you one perfect example is let's say a 10 family of 200 people lived in a certain area, and they have a beautiful nature, they their children grew up there, the parents themselves grew up there, their grandparents themselves grew up there, right? They have horses, yaks, and whatever. And one day the local government comes like, hey, you know what, we're gonna build a we have a license to dig your ground to see if there is mining or gold. And they're like, okay, well, what are you gonna do with it? And you know, I'm I'm I'm I'm paraphrasing, but these conversations are really happening before these companies are going into digging their grounds. So then the locals say, okay, well, what are you gonna do? What are you gonna give us, or how are you gonna change our lifestyle? So the company may offer, well, you could move to the capital, you know, we'll get you a job, we'll get you a house, we'll get you housing, whatever. And some people may say yes, you know, some people may say no, because you know, we grew up here a generation, my grandparents lived here, and we don't want you to destroy the grounds because this is a sacred mountain. So one of the explanations is Mongolians are very close to the nature, so they don't like it. Second is um they in order for somebody to come in, like, you know what, you have to move to the city, you're changing somebody's life. You're changing somebody's history, and if they're not ready, they're not gonna move. You know, so I think that's one of the main reasons for there's so much clash is because people are still very, very close to the nature itself, whichever they're located. Now, as for me, I grew up in the city, but I have access to the countrysides, right? My both of my grandparents had uh country like homes, so I'm thinking if I lose that access to countryside, I wouldn't like it, you know, because that's where my grandparents lived, that's where I grew up, every summer I would go there to hang out. You know, my grandma had cows, we had you know vegetables growing in there. So because I am looking at it from a Mongolian perspective, Mongolian persons perspective, who have lived in both places, I can kind of understand why they don't want to, but at the same time, I also understand what needs to be done for economically, right? If if 200 person is sitting on a gold mine that could develop the country's economy, what do you think the government's gonna do? Right? So these are the questions for policymakers. What do you do? What do you have to do so that these people aren't are happy at the same time they gain something from removing themselves from their beloved lands?

unknown 15:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

I mean, w what you're describing is sort of the story um and complaints of mining all over the world, right? That that it's not a problem unique to Mongolia. Is it maybe the case that is Mongolia sort of late to modernity that these conversations are happening, say, more now than they maybe were back in, I don't know, the 60s, 70s, 80s for other countries?

SPEAKER_02 15:53

Well, so the mining exploration started around 1970s, right? But it didn't really exponentially grow until like 2000s. That's when they the licenses really started going crazy, like all the provinces, right? So people will people were like really focused on into mining business. That was like you should go to mining. Um, in terms of modernization, I think the locals didn't know what they were sitting on until the licenses really started giving opportunity for for exploration companies to go in and really find out what was under it, either it's copper or zinc or whatever. You may, you may say Mongolia is a little behind, because you look at Latin America and Africa could be the same thing except for diamonds, right? As you said, this is a repeated history. And in 2009, um the governments are saying, you know, we shouldn't, we should learn from South America. We should learn learn from the experience of you know Africa, what foreign companies, you know, um they come in and they you know they take the gold and the population is still poor, so how can you prevent it? But if you look at it from current perspective, what has come to now with you know increasing protest, it doesn't seem like Mongolians have learned. At least the policymakers, you know, they got what they got and the people are upset. That's no secret now, is it?

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Are are people upset because they feel like the benefits of the mining isn't being redistributed properly? Like, is there a problem of corruption in Mongolia, or is this just uh supposed ill management? Like, you know, you're just victims of the resource curse.

SPEAKER_02 17:45

I don't like the word resource curse because I think somebody clever just came up with it and just kind of shove it to the country you know, countries with mining like minerals, but they are I think they are certain issues, right? For one, allocation of resources. For one, you have large amount of investments coming into your country, and the government's job is to allocate these financial benefits, right? You open up your mining mining heaven, you have so much money, and you're supposed to give it to the people, not not by cash, right? You're supposed to create a road, you're supposed to create an energy supply, you create a hospital, you create schools for the children in kindergarten. And not just the basic one. We live in the 21st century, you could get high level of medical equipment versus you're building a cement house and just be like hire some people, right? For one. For two, it it's also mismanagement, right? Mongolia hired so many foreign consulting firms, paid them so much money. I think at some point they could just maybe figure it out themselves, you know. I've actually heard one of your episodes about Mackenzie, and I was like, oh my god, I think Mackenzie was in, but they left. You know, they left. And for one, yeah, exactly. So there's definitely mismanagement, and on the domestic part, there's a there's this politics, okay? And I'm not blaming it on the population, but in a way, it makes sense in my head because there's only 3.3 million people. And when you have a businessman turns into a politician, or vice versa, there's always somebody's gonna be within that family who does mining or some sort of a business, right? So it's kind of like your brother did this, my sister did this type of thing, right? So then it becomes a larger political economic issue. So like it it nepot because of nepotism, it stays in the family, and the benefits aren't necessarily at some point, nepotism, that's just the way it is, and like we have to manage it or something, you know?

SPEAKER_00 20:09

Because you're right, I mean 3.3 million people, um you're pulling lots of copper and gold out of the ground. Uh what what else are the the valuable minerals that you're getting?

SPEAKER_02 20:22

Copper, zinc, coal. Um we have found some oil. I think Indian company is working with the Mongolian government to get some oil out. Um I think we have some uranium.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

You're familiar with um Norway, obviously, and the way that they responded to their um their oil windfall, their natural resource windfall. An American company front-loaded all the costs, all the risk, discovered the well, discovered oil. Um and an interesting fact about that is there was just as much oil discovered um on the Scottish side of that North Atlantic Sea as there was on the Norwegian side. Yet you look at the Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund and the amount of ridiculous value that that returns to its nation of five million people, so bigger than Mongolia, every single year. And in uh Scotland, the benefits were narrowly, narrowly gained, and a handful of companies and then a bigger handful of people became extraordinarily wealthy, but the broad social benefit of a s of of a natural resource, which is sort of depending how you think about it, I think that it's uh percentage owned by whoever is part of that country wasn't spread out that way. Australia is the same problem. Um, you know, famously we we basically built China with coal and uh iron that came out of our ground. Yet uh it's not like we have this fabulous, you know, sovereign wealth fund that we can show off because of it. You know, we uh a couple of people, a couple of companies became extraordinarily rich. So is this the case in Mongolia? Is there a way that there's a Norwegian model that can slip in there?

SPEAKER_02 22:07

I think people have discussed in borrowing Norwegian and Singapore and Switzerland models, development models, but if you look at the history, we're all different countries, right? I think that like right now, Norway's renewable energy is amazing. They have such a clean water, and Mongolia is we need clean water, right? So I think if you want to really adopt how other countries similar, like particularly what you said about small states, right? Small states are doing, there are so many things to adopt. And I think right now the couple mining companies, the same thing with the oil industry, I know it's very new right now, still it's you know state-owned. I'm afraid that it may head towards the similar things that we have been experiencing with the two two mining giants, you know, Rio Tinto and um Tavanta. Now, going back to what you said about learning, you can you can suggest so many, right, to a certain certain administration. And then that that administration comes up with certain policy, and then they go through the parliament, it becomes a legal document, boom, election happens, that changes. Okay? That's the problem with Mongolia is every other government has their own agenda of how Mongolia should develop. So I don't know the details of Norwegian politics, but if they have a stable government, you know, they obviously know what is more important. One. Two one of the issue with Mongolians, you know, Mongolian governments keep changing the the path to develop, even with so much you have so much opportunity to learn, right? Mackenzie is just one, but Norway, you learn from Australia, you learn from Central America.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

And you're talking about Mongolian businesses that absorb this knowledge and then use it locally.

SPEAKER_02 24:28

You don't think that's happening? No, so they have there's like maybe 10 big companies and they make a decision and they get all the financial benefits, and what the trickle-down effect is it they're not really trickling down. They're trickling down to maybe to minimum because the inequality is large and the gap is increasing. You know, you have you have you ever been to Mongoli before?

SPEAKER_00 24:55

No, unfortunately not. I wish.

SPEAKER_02 24:58

Well you said you would, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:00

Oh fuck yeah. First chance I get, I'll go.

SPEAKER_02 25:03

So the inequality is so visible in one's eye, it's it's not it's not fair, right? You talk about like um shanty towns, right? Favelas. Like you go to Brazil and you have favelas. Well, I'm calling it favela because it's basically similar.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

But it's a shanty town. They live in the city. It's a shanty town.

SPEAKER_02 25:26

Yes, they're off to grids, they don't have they don't have a proper sewage system, and then you have the rich people have their own backyards and a couple houses, they're away from their pollution. So the inequality is increasing. It doesn't matter how many coal you sell, you have to have this system, and I think one of the reasons is we keep flip-flopping between capitalism and socialist welfare states. And I know you had a question about this, which I I hope that we'll get into in in depth. I think you keep flip-flopping, and as as developments are happening, you change the path, and then that's just kind of like two steps back. You know, I feel like the last 30 years we have flip-flopped so so many times. You didn't get the investment, even you got the investment, you got corrupted. Like I said, 10 companies. And the people are still poor. They're still very, very poor.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

There's um uh a book called uh Trillion Dollar Baby. The author was a guest on the podcast as an Australian called Paul Cleary, and in that he basically um, I think, at least, you know, uh explains why Norway managed to end up in the position that they're in. And it's such a fascinating way to look at things, especially when you compare it to how Australia has managed it. And now now we're going all right, but we could have done a lot better, but then many other countries as examples. And a really curious detail of it was that the Norwegians acted extremely selfishly to the international companies that came in. So, for example, uh, I think it was Phillips Petroleum, they frontloaded so much risk and money to find this well. Um, Shell, Shell front loaded shitloads of money as well to find more wells and get rights to it. And once they did find it, Norway turned around and said, Cheers, thanks for that. You know, you're not gonna go home empty-handed, but we're going to absorb the absolute majority of the upside here, and if you don't like it, you can go home. And so what they did then after that was Um Just because it's such a small population, right? I don't know what they were at the time. They're five million now, and it was all basically isolated around Stavanger, this tiny little town on the coast. Um, they re-educated um th that they they changed they completely pivoted the direction of their universities. They brought on all these Iraqi and Iranian um petroleum specialists, and all of a sudden Norway now these days is turning out the greatest like um geophysicists, the greatest mining engineers and so forth. So they they pivoted to get the education of their own people so they could actually do it themselves. They hired all the guys out from the country, gave them really well-paying jobs to actually do the hard work on the oil rigs and so forth. Um, they built their own shipping lines and s and and it's just the this incredible example of how a tiny economy that is all homogeneously working together, which it feels like the Mongolian does as well, but this is me just speaking with absolutely no knowledge at all, but just that that there it's a small enough economy with enough of a cultural homogeneity, you know? Um I I believe Mongolia is one of the hardest countries in the world to actually immigrate to to get a passport in, right? You really hold on to what it is to be a Mongolian. I I don't think Jack Weatherford's gotten a Mongolian passport, for example, and he won the highest order that a foreigner can get. So you have that cultural homogeneity like Norway, you've got the Tani population, you've got all the natural resources. It just feels like um there there is something there, there's potential. Like if the ship hasn't sailed, it's not too late.

SPEAKER_02 29:18

Well, for one, they're Vikings, okay. And for two, I I noticed that you said the Norwegians were being selfishly, but what's behind being selfish is they're not they're not insecure, they're not vulnerable, right? They have a coast. They they invaded everywhere, right? Mongolians invaded everywhere, but we don't have coast, right? So when it comes to that economic anything involving economy investment, Mongolia is insecure. Okay? We don't have a coast, we're landlocked between Russia and China. Even our third neighbor foreign policy that that could really open the gate for our economy, it's still dependent on the two neighbors, right? So that makes it, I think, insecure. So in order for Mongolia to be selfish, you have to be smart. You can't say no. Yeah, you have to be extremely diplomatic. You want to have all the cards on the table to see who's out there. You can't kick them all out, but you can't have them all. So it's very difficult for Mongolia. Um, especially when it comes to investment. There was a time when everybody was interested in Mongolia, but because of our legal system, you know, as I said earlier, it's very complicated. It's not it's not as simple as Singapore or as other really, really highly developed countries or you know, like city-states are developed. So I think one of the issues is very insecure. And I think Mongolia knows its vulnerability, but that's also the advantage because then because we know our vulnerability, you are your eyes are open. You know, you know you're not you're not being closed-minded. You're seeking for every opportunity to develop, you're looking for every every diplomatic bilateral relations to I don't want to say use it towards your development, but you're always looking for something more than just it, you know, more than just the diplomatic relations. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:37

Yeah, that is um that is a perfect example of why they are different to Norway. Norway's safe up there in Scandinavia.

SPEAKER_02 31:47

Um it's beautiful. I'd love to go to University of Oslo. I've been Googling University of Oslo for years, and I even thought about maybe I'll do my PhD there. Just travel around Norway and see a Viking. You gotta go.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

I think it's I I haven't been to Mongolia yet or Kirgistan or any of these fantastic places, but uh so far in my life, I think Norway you can make an objective argument that it is the most stunningly beautiful country in the entire world. Um you know, the the fjord's actually something else. You know, you've got sheer sheer cliffs that fall into some sort of green hill that rolls into a deep water that then comes back up the other side with snow on the top, and you can hike it and everything's nice and it's so safe, and yeah, it's ridiculously nice.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Yeah, I'd love to do it.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

Yeah. Let's uh um speak um more broadly about the culture, but away from mining. So there's a fella Tim Cope, an Australian who rode his horse. He bought a couple of horses, rode it across Mongolia. Um Charlie Walker walked across Mongolia. There are so many great stories of um, at least from my in my opinion, great stories of uh adventurers and explorers and even journalists sort of doing these super romantic sweeping journeys across Mongolia, and you get the sense that it's almost still nomadic. Um how much truth is there to that, or is it just a hyper-romanticization of what maybe Mongolia once was?

SPEAKER_02 33:19

When you go outside the city, you're free, you know? You okay, I'm gonna give an example. So in the States, if I want to camp, I have to book advanced, I have to book like a little corner and tell them how much how many cars I have, and then I have to pay for the car to like, you know, how many nights I'm staying, $20, $30, whatever. And I can't go anywhere, right? So in a way, I feel like it's not free here, you know. It's free, but then it's not. You go to Mongolia, obviously, with language difficulties, you need a translator. But if you have a great horse and you want to go left and right, east west, you're free. Um, I think when you come from a such a capitalistic society where you have to pay for everything, and everything is so privatized, you go to Mongolia and you're shocked because you pay the translator, you pay the driver, you get your horse, and if you know how to ride a horse, you just go ahead, right? You want to camp here, you can camp whenever. So, in a way, it's a shock for the people that are coming in from such a such a I don't want to say this, but kind of like a money-sucking society. But it's really free. It's really, really free. So I don't think the only thing that they may be romanticizing is they maybe it's the how open it is, right? You have the blue sky and there's nothing there, and below it's just mountains or just plain fields, and where you see that only in paintings, and when you see that much open space where there's nothing in it, it just looks like looks like looks like a magic, you know. Especially if you live in New York or you come from Hong Kong. I know there's a lot of Chinese visitors. No, really, you just Hong Kong's horrible. There's no space. They don't they don't move, they don't move horizontally. They're like they're done, so they start building up, you know, how tall can you go? So Mongolia is flat, right? There's nothing there. So I think that's one of the things that people are like, oh my god, this is really the place to be. You can breathe, right? You have plenty of space. Um, the son of the a former US ambassador, um, Jonathan Addleton's son, did a kind of like a car trip east to west. That was pretty amazing, too. He went across all the you know famous uh places and he like camped, rode horses, met the locals, ate whatever they ate. So I think a lot of the notes and the books that you have read or what they have told you is true. Yes, I I would I would seriously say it's true. Um but there is also the horse horse culture, right? Everywhere you see you have horses because in countryside you know you need a transportation. So horses are transportation.

SPEAKER_00 36:30

Talk about the horses more. Um because that's a huge a huge detail in uh in Gang's kind of making the modern world. I mean, that the horse was so much a part of society that it it wasn't a pet, it it was a companion, and um they would provide meat, milk, transport, everything. Um how much has the horse culture remained in Mongolia?

SPEAKER_02 36:58

We love horses. I just I feel like throughout centuries since Chungisang, it as you said, it's a companion, you know, it's not a pet. So we have a word saying you treat your horse What is it? Like the way you treat your horse is the way how your life is gonna go, basically. Because as you said, do you take care of your car? Yes, right? Do you feed them oil? So you know you have to take care of your transportation, but during during winter, you have to eat the horse. I mean you don't have to, but if you don't have any food or you know, some sort of a a nutrition, then you know the horse is also also a you know food. So horse is really, really well respected. In fact, you don't beat your horses. You actually give them the best food, you give them the best best home. Um we also there's also a horse stories from different provinces. I don't know if you want to hear.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

Sure, lay it on me. You absolutely love horses, as you were saying off-air.

SPEAKER_02 38:13

I love horses. Um, I my grandfather had 20-something horses when I grew up. You you may you're probably gonna laugh at me, but I'm not that great horse rider. Okay, I was always afraid because they were so big, but I know some people call Mongolian horses ponies because they're smaller, like European horses are crazy big, right? Mongolian horses are a little smaller, but they have the capacity to do long distance, really, really long distance. And the story that I was gonna tell you is um so throughout throughout Mongol's history, different provinces, you know, you have like civilizations and nomads, they all had horses. So we had some Robin Hood characters too. Okay, what they would do is they would steal the Mongolian Robin Hoods would steal horses from the rich people from the east or the west, vice versa, and then they would ride it all the way to the opposite side to give it to the poor. So the rich people had more horses. So they call these people like if I were to translate it like Robin Hood, okay. So this is one of the one of the things that was like stealing horses. You're not really stealing. I mean, the I'm sure there are some people who stole horses for their own purposes, but in a way the the poor didn't have many horses because as you said, there's transportation, food, milk, everything. But the rich people had like 20, 30, maybe hundreds, thousands of horses, so stealing a couple was nothing, right? Yeah. Um and we have we have a history of war horses, which always brings tears to my eyes because there were a couple of horses that now I don't know when was this, okay? You might have to do your own research for this. The Chinese have purchased, I don't know, like 2,000 something horses from Mongolia. And when they took the horses, they kind of they kind of closed their eyes so they don't know where they were going. And a couple weeks later, all the horses ran back. They didn't want to stay there. They ran back, they crossed the border, they all came back. And these are the stories that like it's so sad in a way, like they did they didn't want to be there. Maybe the smell was different, maybe their grass didn't taste good. They just wanted them to be like Chinese people. Huh? Yeah, or maybe they didn't like Chinese people, you know, maybe they didn't like the way they talk or whatever. Maybe they weren't feeding them with whatever the Mongolian organic grass. So horse has been just really, really cultural animal for Mongolians, and you probably know, you know, during Natham and national holidays, you do horse racing. And that's big in Mongolia too.

SPEAKER_00 41:14

And and isn't horse theft also big in Mongolia? Uh Tim Cope, who's the Australian who rode his horses across, commented on, and this happened in Kazakhstan too, so maybe it's like a step culture thing. Um, but constantly people would steal his horses and then just sort of return them to him and be and act like it's all in good sport, you know. A horse owner should not let their horses be stolen.

SPEAKER_02 41:40

Yeah. Well, they they used to steal cow carriages too. I think they just needed a transportation, you know? And they because most most houses, and not houses, most families would leave their horses outside, right? You have like a, I don't know what it's called. You have it's a line and you have like four or five horses. That means those horses are ridable. The ones in the cage, you can't ride them because you don't know if they're broken or trained. But the ones that are standing outside somebody's houses, you can you can ride them. But I don't know about stealing them and then bringing them back. Maybe it's somebody that they know from the opposite side of the mountain, which is totally possible because like the Mongolians, they like certain spaces. They don't want to live too close, especially if you're in the countryside. You build your gur, you have your access to water, you always want to have you always want to settle close to water, and you don't want to build your you you you know what I'm saying, gur, right? The yurt.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

The yurt, yeah, the the tent.

SPEAKER_02 42:43

The yurt, yeah, yeah. So you don't tent? It's not a tent, it's a yurt. It is definitely not a tent. So you want to find yourself a kind of like mountain, right? And then have water. So stealing horses, I think it's normal.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

I mean, I don't know if it's still a thing, but And if if you were to stroll the streets of Willum Batar, how often would you s just see horses about?

SPEAKER_02 43:14

Oh God, no. You're not not in downtown.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

No, they're not in the city at all.

SPEAKER_02 43:19

No, they're not in the city anymore. But if you go outside, I'm pretty sure you would still see a couple cows and horses, but you're thinking about like a countryside where people have a bunch of horses.

SPEAKER_03 43:31

Hmm.

SPEAKER_02 43:32

It's not 1920s in London, you know, black and white.

SPEAKER_00 43:39

The hopefully this transitions us a little bit into um modernity and maybe in your own lifetime how you've seen Mongolia change. Uh, because there was a really interesting detail from Charlie Walker, who who was one of these guys that rode a horse across Mongolia, which is that um he would see often people. People using motorbikes to herd the animals rather than traditionally what would have been horses, which is a very clear sign of modernity um kind of killing uh maybe slowly killing, but killing nonetheless, um a a type of culture. So that's uh m uh just a little meander into how modernity may have influenced Mongolian culture and how you've seen it.

SPEAKER_02 44:26

Yeah. In many ways, I think modernity is inevitable. If you look at 1970s and 80s, that's why you're talking about where people would, you know, hurt hurt their animals with motorcycle, because obviously you're exposed to different transportation systems and you want to use it versus horse. Um in my lifetime, I have seen transformation in the capital and in the countryside. When I grow up, I would take the train from UB, just the capital, Atlambakar, to the countryside, and my grandma or somebody from the neighborhood will pick me up in a cow carriage. It's simple. You have a you have one cow, you hop on it, and I was always afraid because I would be imagining like wolves or something coming out and just gonna like eat me alive, right? And there not really, there were times like like there was like only two or three trains that goes into the capital after 9 p.m. It was like 12, and then it was like 4. If you take the 4 a.m. one, the cow will be just waiting for you outside, and you know, obviously there's somebody, and I would literally I would hear I would hear I would hear wolf howling and I'll be like, oh my god, this is how I die, right? That has changed. Okay, there are there are no car, there are no cow carriages in my grand grandparents' property now. You know, there are no horses, everyone has a little Toyota or whatever they use, their motorcycle. Um, if you can't afford a car, then motorcycle is the way to go. But you don't see horses anymore, you don't see cow carriages. I'd love to sit on a cow carriage again. And actually, a uh family of mine told me that the ride was only 20 minutes, and I swear it was like the longest ride ever. And now that I think I was just small and I was just really, really scared. Right? So when, as you mentioned, Charlie Walker's during time, I think modernization was coming in, whether it was transportation, whether Mongolians are starting to like really go out, you know, they started to really, really travel. So when they come back, they bring those knowledges, they bring new ideas, right? Now, 1990s, I have witnessed how Korean pop culture and Japanese and Chinese pop culture was coming into Mongolia. Okay, I was born in 1988, so when I was a teenager, I was in love with Korean actors and actresses. I'm like, okay, this is like the cutest guy I have ever seen. And we were like bombarded before then it was Russian, we had French uh telemovies, we had we even had Spanish soap operas, which was really interesting. I don't even know how it got there. Okay, but this is this is during the 1990s, I was probably eight or nine, you know. Watching telenovelas, watching exactly telenovelas, and then once you know, once I was exposed to Spanish language, that guy's name was Miguel Angel, not Michelangelo or something, you know, to my ears were all like the same. Then I realized, oh my god, Michelangelo is somebody totally different. So modernization came through Mongolia like all different ways. TV, people started traveling, then you start seeing more foreigners were interested in traveling, doing research in Mongolia. Um, as you know, since I was I was much younger, so I didn't know what they were doing, but I have accompanied a couple of I think they were German and French couple people to the countryside. I was just kind of like, you know, just playing, but one of my family members was a translator, so she did all the work, so I just hopped on the car and traveled around the country. I'm assuming that there were researchers like anthropology or some sort. And then 2000s, by 2000s, Mongolia was already modern, I would say, you know, people knew about Mongolia businesses, even the foods came, the foods, you know, like restaurants, you would have so many different foreign restaurants like Mexican tacos and whatnot. You know, so I think all all those things are modernization. And a lot of the people that who went abroad brought back lots of knowledge and ideas and you know, modernized modernization just I think you'd say I don't think it ever stops, it just kind of changes. It continues, do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 49:22

But to try and reconnect with one of the first points uh you made, i is it still the case that Mongolia has like a particular fierceness in holding on to their old nomadic horse-loving culture? For example, despite all this modernity, are there st is it still the case that you could buy a horse, ride it for a couple of days in any direction, and may maybe not cross a fence, camp wherever you like? Is is that is that type of idyllic freedom still possible in modern 2023 Mongolia?

SPEAKER_02 50:01

It's still possible, you just have to know where you're going. You know, you won't find a horse to rent a place in the capital. You have to leave the capital where all the financial center, you know, where all the younger professionals are working. But if you're looking for a nomadic society, you're looking for the stuff that what I just said to be really free, it's still out there. It's it's definitely still out there. What what modern what modernization has changed, you know, the countryside lifestyle that I'm I'm you know bringing up is perhaps telephone communication, you know, everyone has an iPhone. You may see people wearing Adidas, Louis Vuitton, maybe Chanel, you know, those type of things are modernized. But if you look at the lifestyle of the countryside folks, they tend to hold on to traditions more than people in the capital.

unknown 51:00

Right.

SPEAKER_02 51:01

You're too busy stuck in traffic, worried about the air pollution. Why would you care about horse riding? Do you know what I'm saying? Right? And then summer happens, everyone wants to go out to the countryside. That's when families get together, you rent a horse, you go visit your extended families, and you camp out, you ride your horses. But to get to the bottom of your question is is mod do modernization change what Mongolians are trying to hold on to, is it's very difficult, right? I'm gonna give you an example. No, right? Okay, so it's kind of like a bunch of sticks and rocks. You have you build like a rock, right? You go to Cairn. It's a bunch of rocks and sticks, everything, and you create like a like a like a triangle, right? So you drive around.

SPEAKER_00 52:06

For what for what purpose?

SPEAKER_02 52:09

So their purpose is to way back when it was a they used it as kind of like a meeting spot, or you leave a message there for somebody to pick up, or it or it serves as a border, right? Border between Mongolia and China or Russia or whatever. So what happened is we have used this cairn system for decades, and now people use it as kind of like a prayer location, right? You pray to your God or the Mongolian Buddhist or whatever, and you leave items for thanking them. Or there are there are cases where let's say somebody broke their legs and they leave their crutches saying, I have healed, thank you. Okay, so over time these items clutter this cultural thing that Mongolians used to take care of. As you as you modernize, you need to find a way to take care of those things. Okay, let's see you come to Mongolia and you're gonna be like, oh, Balar was talking about this, and then you see all these garbages are cluttered and it's stinky. You wonder, why do they not take care of these if these are cultural items, right? You can't help but to wonder, and not just because you're foreigner, Mongolians too. So the question is who's responsible for it? Am I responsible because I'm using it? Or the local government's responsible because it's built on their jurisdiction, or the state govern the decentralized government is responsible. The administration is responsible. So as you modernize, the way in which you take care of your cultural items has to change too. If you're not using the cairn, that's fine. If you're not using it, it's just gonna be a bunch of rocks. If you're using it, you have to take care of it. But the environmental issue is a very, very big aspect of because when we're when we first started our podcast, you asked about how common goes are so close to nature, you know, fighting against mining. That's the way you should protect your cultural heritage sites. And I was gonna say UNESCO has been very active in protecting you know Mongolian heritage sites too.

SPEAKER_00 54:34

On the dual experience of your upbringing and modernity, Mongolia's changing modernity, can you talk about the role that alcoholism plays in Mongolia? Uh, because it's famously a massive problem. Um so in your own life, um, anecdotally, but then as well what the statistics, broader statistics say.

SPEAKER_02 55:03

So alcohol has always been around, right? It's not just Mongolia but worldwide. But the usage and how and when to use differ. So Mongolia has all different sorts of alcohol. We even have our like own Mongolian alcohol that made from milk, right? So traditionally, way back when when actual vodka weren't introduced, that's where they used to drink. It's basically milk.

SPEAKER_00 55:26

Fermented milk.

SPEAKER_02 55:27

Fermented milk. I've tried it.

SPEAKER_00 55:29

Appetizing. Uh, what's it taste like?

SPEAKER_02 55:32

Well, it's very sour, and you drink it, you don't feel like you're drinking, and then you're out.

SPEAKER_00 55:37

Because it's what super high, super high uh percentage.

SPEAKER_02 55:42

Yeah, but when you drink it, it definitely doesn't taste like you're drinking vodka. And as Mongolia modernized, people start bringing in different different types of alcohol, you know, products. And obviously vodka is when very one of them. You have Russia there, and you know, Russians they drink a lot. Um, I think 1970s and 80s were definitely influenced by Mongolians going to Eastern Europe. So the drinking culture is pretty similar to Eastern Europe, the Soviet Union. But I think after 1990s, the and I think I've read this somewhere that unemployment really, really influenced Mongolians drinking more because there was no job and they had nothing to do, especially in during winter, what do you do? You can't go out, it's minus 40 degrees, you don't have a job. And it's horrible that even if you're poor, even if you're poor, people won't give you money to buy food, but you can always find alcohol, some sort of vodka or some kind of you know alcoholic beverages. And after Mongolia's democra democratization, when people really went abroad and really tasted what's out there, then they started importing different items, wines, different types of beers, famous German beers, you know. So I think that become more of a consumer, you know, diverse consumers. Now the numbers, I actually did a little bit of research, and Mongolis drink less than Canadians do, unfortunately. I then I thought, you know, Canada is pretty close too. What's that?

SPEAKER_00 57:31

Per per capita, really.

SPEAKER_02 57:33

Yes. There was a number. And Russians, Russians still drink more. I I have a note here. Let me quickly pull it up. That's why I was I was surprised, and I know there's a stereotypes saying that Mongolians drink a lot, but uh Canadians looks like they drink more than us. But um there was a guy who went to Mongolia, and I don't know if you've read it already, but this guy wrote a book that he actually wrote about how Mongolian alcoholism has led to so many you know domestic issues and oh really?

SPEAKER_00 58:09

No, you've never heard of it.

SPEAKER_02 58:11

Yeah, this American guy went to Mongolia to do to to teach English or something, and wrong place, wrong time, got bullied by a couple of drunkies in the bar and got beaten up really, really bad. So obviously his perspective changed because of that one bad event, you know. Um but you could yes, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 58:35

It sounds like you're suggesting that perhaps alcoholism isn't as much of a plague to the culture and society as the stereotype might suggest.

SPEAKER_02 58:47

No, I'm not saying that. Um I haven't gotten there yet. Actually, Mongolians do drink a lot. I was just saying, looking at the numbers, but from my perspective, from the environment where I grew up, everyone drank. You know, my parents, parents, like friends drank, you know, my extended relative drank, but it wasn't to the point where they're like pass out. It was more like for social, social drinking. So to my eyes, there's two different types of drinking. You can drink socially, or you drink until you pass out, and you do stupid shit, right? So I didn't grow up in the environment where people would do stupid shit, but I have heard plenty of stories that led to domestic violence. And I remember when during the 1990s there was a there was a advertisement, it was kind of like anti-alcohol advocacy group that created a video like five five six seconds. This mother is standing with her daughter by the refrigerator, and then the father just comes in really, really drunk, and then the girl just shivers. Me watching that, I'm like, oh my god, what is this? Right? So it was during the 1990s where alcoholism has exploded. I think it was because of the unemployment, there was nothing to do, and I think it was the government's approach to like to not drink because you're destroying your children's life, you're destroying your you know family lives. Um the another issue that Mongolians are you know known for drinking stereotype and its relation to vodka, is I I would say it's different from generation to generation, right? So my generation would drink socially. But again, there are people that who just drink until they don't know what the heck is happening. The generation that are younger than I am, so like Generation Z, for example, they consume alcohol, but they consume different things. They don't drink vodka. They drink cocktails, they drink expensive wines, the guys drink beer. So I think it's going back to your modernization question, that generation is changed by what kind of products are coming into Mongolia. In the 70s and 80s, everyone's drinking vodka. Right now, ladies are more interested in drinking French wine and the guys are drinking, you know, German beers. So but yeah, people need to stop drinking too much. If this is the message that I've I want to, you know, if I want to send by taking this opportunity, it's not good for you. Especially for especially for women, you know, it you can you can tell when a person drinks so much, their skin you don't glow, you lose that glow. Just don't drink.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:48

I mean, it from what you're describing though, you could have easily have supplemented in, you know, Australia, um, even Sweden, you know, um as alcohol alcohol is a problem. Some people maybe drink too much, some people just drink socially, you know, you drink uh what you're drinking is determined by you know your um your income, sure. But it just feels like and and again I may this is me, someone who's never travelled there, only heard and r and and only heard things, so it's it's a a completely unqualified uh opinion or a suggestion to make. But um all the stories of these great adventurers and travellers who who I really admire who have gone through there comment on how it's not just, you know, a couple of it's not just a bottle of wine at a party. It's 6 a.m. and you just got into a taxi and the driver is completely fucked, and he's got a half-empty bottle of Shingasgun vodka next to him. Or, you know, you're brought into a yurt late at night, and these people are very hospitable and very nice to you, but all of a sudden everyone's passed out because they all got so hammered and there was some sort of domestic violence involved. Now, obviously, there's all individual cases, but just the the real problem of how alcohol really plagues a society, um, one gets the sense that in the steppe countries, Russia included, it's more severe than it might be in, say, Northern Europe or Australia or Canada, for instance.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:22

Yeah. Well, you know, I have heard similar stories, and I think it depends on what you do, what's your job, what's your social status. If you're depressed and you know, you're just you don't have a life goal or something, you're more likely to to take a depressant because alcohol is a depressant, it does not make you happy, and at some point if you don't stop, it turns into it makes you act on it. You know? And I don't know, I don't know what else to tell you, but it is true, and I think the government is trying to change they're trying to change it by I think one of the first day of the month or the last day of the month is you can't sell alcohol. But kind of well, no, because for some reason, like when you tell people don't do this, then they start doing it more. I've heard that that's like the day where everybody's partying, just because it's kind of like the prohibition, right? Prohibition. They're out of protest or their body just like, you know what, you're gonna tell me what to do, then hello, I'm gonna drink it. For one, for two, is on on alcoholism, the now I know we may be starting to talk about something else, but the social pressure is also another thing that you know connects to consumption of alcohol. Social pressure to drink. If you're not happy, social pressure to drink, if you're not happy and you go out to do something, and if you don't have other positive activities and you have so many bars, what are you gonna do? You're gonna go to a bar. Can you go to a bar without drinking? So all these issues are kind of connected at the same time. What's that?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:21

I was saying no, you're gonna booze. You're gonna drink.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:25

Yeah, so you know, yes, so you you you drink and Mongolia has so many bars, so many fun places, but it's not really it's not really healthy. And when you have a stressed society that is suffocated in air pollution, or whatever their individual problems are, you're going down.

unknown 1:05:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:50

What about um what about drugs? So is there a problem of uh methamphetamines or uh do a lot of people smoke? Is there a stigma around drugs socially?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:03

Um it'd be interesting to know what the other side is of sort of uh um substance abuse apart from alcohol so Mongolia is really strict on drugs including marijuana um if you get caught you will go to jail and most likely they will I don't I don't know the level of interrogation but they will ask you to who sold you that you know because they want to find out who's supplying and who's selling but at the same time it's not it's not as open as for example the US you know US states are like liberalized I I don't see that happening in Mongolia for a while. There is a there is a drug problem that most likely comes in from Russia and China but these are the numbers that I think Mongolia keeps it really under low control. So one of the reasons is the more exposed you are the more exposed your population is given the depressive modes or even alcohol the consumption of alcohol could be applied to consumption of other drugs so as a preventative measurement I think you don't talk about it. You know you don't release the numbers but I do know marijuana is really illegal and if you get caught then most likely you're gonna go to jail. It will definitely not be illegalized for a while.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:33

But that's also maybe a reflection of the Mongolian culture? Like is there even a demand for drugs? Do people want them? No no I don't think so yeah I I I find these little details um so extremely fascinating when you know looking at different cultures different countries trying to figure them out um forgive me for the very granular sort of uh questions I I hope there is still a broad interest from the from the audience here but there is another interesting uh detail which I would love to hear you speak on in the Mongolian culture and that is the dynamic of um men versus women so I'll just say what the the the stereotype is is that it's an extremely masculine culture but it's also one that is quite matriarchal in the sense that uh like the there's the famous Mongol queens the mo the the the the Khans um although maybe didn't treat the no it's not even important to say but the Khans had sort of deep respect for the women in the community right um and would give them lots of responsibility which a lot of other cultures weren't doing at the time so broad question modern Mongolia in your own life your own experience what is the role of men the role of women how has it changed there's so much so many details but from a broader perspective um there's definitely social roles that you know men and women have in the Mongolian society I don't know if it's directly from the result of the Soviet system whatnot but you know during Soviet era there was a school there's a schooling like the guys would go to carpentry school you want to know how to fix a car build a chair whereas women know how to sew and cook right I don't know if it's cook for your husband or cook for your children but you have to have these basic skills.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:34

Now if you look at it from modern perspective you might say this is gender inequality because you're not giving the woman opportunity what if the woman wanted to become carpenter and this guy wanted to become a chef you know these skills are like kind of set in a two system and you just took away the opportunity but this is from a modern perspective right um but I think over time the idea was men was always head of the household right from culturally you come into a Mongolian household the husband is sitting on the top the children are sitting below and the husband never sits you know the lowest table so the wife would sit next to and I think it's also the same with like older families right so the father would sit the son would sit and then the uncles and then it's the wives so visually those things are I think those things are still very very live um but at the same time you look at divorce rates head of households more women are educated than Mongolian men currently they are even though men want to be the head of the household men women are leading a lot of the families um single moms there's like an era of really really bad high divorce rate so the mothers usually take the children so you know single single mom households is really normal in Mongolian society today. So I think the the gender roles have definitely switched the women are taking more roles they're the carpenter but they're also the chef right um traditionally they there are there are so many words that in a way degrade Mongolian not just Mongolian but just woman right I don't know if you heard but there's uh oh your knowledge is shorter than your hair or you know I am I am doing direct translation okay so these these you have no I haven't okay yeah so you know the the dad or the grandfather would say like oh it's better for you to you know be quiet than open your mouth or those type of things we have like traditional sayings so I think back then the idea of the men of the household was much more greater I think modern days the woman would just say shut up you're not doing anything you know I think we have more voice for one for two and I think Mongolia is changing you know so much as the world women are taking more higher roles they have much more voice and they know that they're doing most of the roles in the household so the roles have definitely changed for domestic violence there's definitely men are you know showing domestic violence more towards the woman whether out of hate or you know men's ego it could be very much a thing you know they have they have the idea of I'm the man of the household but they're not contributing enough so they get upset and they drink and there's domestic violence.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:56

It's kind of I mean uh is there any sympathy for you for maybe the men in Mongolian society who aren't as educated as the women and aren't necessarily presented with the same job opportunities that their own fathers and grandfathers had. And so there is this you know sense of desperation um where obviously the ego is intact and you maybe feel impotent as a man who maybe cannot be the provider who his entire life his culture has told him that he should be and that his wife someone who he maybe loved at one stage he starts to resent because she's actually much better than him. She brings in the money she takes care of the kids and you're just a guy who drinks and grows more and more resentful. I don't think it's uh you know um so do you have sympathy for this situation? Does that situation even make sense? Are there jobs for the men?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:56

Yes I mean I I personally think that there should be more service for men you know I I don't believe that women and men should always be treated equally because they're different you know we're we're naturally different and if you keep paying more attention to the mom and the children the father is also a character too you know and if you don't have a social service or some sort of a father support you're killing half of your population basically because what are you without a full family you have all sorts of broken broken little pieces right so the way I see this is family is the very very strong fabric of a whole society right and I I have been mentoring like undergraduate students for about four years now and most of them are female students and I wonder I was like why are the dudes you know I want like male students come to me and tell me that I want to learn to write I want to learn I want to become a researcher but for some reason I've had 25 30 students 90% are girls.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:09

Now I don't know if it's the I don't know guys where are you so I don't know if the ambition ambition is not there or they're just they're not interested in academia as much as could girls could it also be could it also be that in in um what seems like a very sort of masculine culture the very idea of um higher academia or writing or these maybe more you know feminine roles even though that's not the case but they might view it the that as being the case is an explanation for why they're simply not there.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:51

Yeah maybe but you know going back to the word you know going back to what you said about do I feel empathetic for other men I I really really do because they have they have a very important role in every society. You know so and education is just one of them if Mongolian society sees men as drunkies and uglies and they can't do anything we're we're going down as a society.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:16

No really I I know you're not lacking view in Mongolia drunken no I'm just saying okay well if you're if you're drinking and uglies then you are drunkies and uglies right so at some point the man needs to become men and do something at the same time you're not acting alone the woman has to respect the man too not necessarily as you know head of the household but as an individual you know it's a two-way street you this is not a one-way street right yeah and as per education I was gonna add is that you're right major is definitely one um I may be in international relations there's way more Mongolian women who wants to become diplomat than they want to do but they are guys who are you know doing a science technology high tech computer science so that could be one of the explanations yeah ma maybe um uh this I've just thought this and it's not necessarily relating to Mongolia but um the idea of you know the the the man is supposed to be the maybe head of the house the guy who is brings in the the money and takes care of everyone and makes sure everyone's safe um is is pretty universal right most most cultures have um behaved that way uh up until the last few generations I I perhaps in the one country where that is a small exception you know Sweden northern northern Europe um anyway this same desperation which is being manifested in Mongolia through um more domestic violence more alcoholism i i it could also explain these like social uh internet phenomena and the manosphere and the huge popularity of people like Jordan Peterson or Andrew Tate and stuff like that. The same motivations or the same reasons um it's just uh yeah like as as an explanation for why they're so absurdly popular. Um yeah so you and I agree with Jordan Peterson Uh I used to be a huge Jordan Peterson guy loved him um when he first jumped on the scene speaking about you know shouldering a responsibility um doing hard things um being responsible to those hard things um Jungian psychology thought it was fascinating um but I admit the last few years I found him pretty off putting just because he became an expert on absolutely everything uh and started I think pandering a lot more to the audience that gave him a lot of respect and love which are the same people that are themselves completely lost and stuck in a neurosis maybe that's that's what I think. Are you a big fan of him?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:18

Well I I like psychology. I read everything but you know when things go too extreme I tend not to like it because you know you can't be extreme. You can't you can't be one-sided you know I feel like life is really about being open minded and then you just pick and choose. You know I there was time I read um Jordan Peterson's 12 rules of life and I was like okay that's nice but only if it applied to certain situations you know everybody's different right so when you when you read an inspiration book it's always you don't have to take it you just you learn it you adapt it and if you can't learn then okay well nice book thank you yeah that's how I see about Jordan Peterson yeah I I don't like extremism I I don't support it.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:11

Yeah I think he peaked he peaked with that book yeah he definitely did yeah with with that sort of self-help stuff I find as well to just for it to be directly prescriptive is wrong but as a as a map like here are the options but you're the person who has to decide how you're going to deal with it um I think yeah you can get a lot from there. But uh on the question of the male female dynamics in Mongolia huge rising divorce rate maybe more educated females um females performing better in the economy tie that in to the shocking Mongolian demographics in terms of uh low birth rates what is the future looking like for Mongolia well we're at three point three right now I think it has slowed down and as with any society the more birth rate you have your economy and society should be able to handle those uh those increases right um one of the reasons that there were high divorce rate was because Mongolia was encouraging people to have more children during nine twenty twenty twelve maybe twenty two thousand nine ish and what happened was there was a financial benefit welfare state okay said hey if you get married you have more children we'll give you this much money for monthly okay kind of as like a like a social social service right and when younger generation people they started you know having families and really started learning what having family is like the divorce rate went up they didn't care about the money anymore okay and I think there goes the single moms right and as people get more educated they don't want children right away especially what I said earlier you have to choose a partner right and if the partner is not there woman even men too they're not just sitting still they're going to school they're looking for jobs they're doing something for their own life and if the partner doesn't come up you have different right we have more more female than men now because the woman doesn't want to get married to a certain undereducated or doesn't have certain things established.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:05

Now you look at an 18 year old you don't expect him to have a car or a full-time job but if you're looking at 25 year old you better have a job you better have graduated you better you better have your own perspective of life you know you want certain things so those are the things that are playing an important role in Mongolian women nowadays why they don't want to get married and have children too early because they are they're they're getting more ambitious right I'm not saying that they don't want a family but if you look at the numbers the birth rate is kind of going down so I don't know if it's personal choices but if you if you look at the number the the demographics are definitely you know we have fire uh higher women and it was like one guy could have three or four girlfriends and they were even joking like hey could we go to poly uh polygamy right there's a joke like you know all these women are just gorgeous and beautiful can we have multiple wives and like as a joke I wanted to say like hey you can't even handle one how can you have four you know so this is one of the this is this is an issue because you have to fix it otherwise otherwise what happens is your Mongolian woman would start marrying somebody else and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:30

We'll talk about that marrying someone else because um what we said earlier I d you didn't actually comment on it but what Jack Weatherford said at least that the Mongolian culture is so homogenous you know it's so hard to actually become a Mongolian uh really the only way to fix a demographic problem um apart from raising the birth rate is raising immigration so you've got Russia to your north China to your south I get the sense you're not going to want to be um bringing either of them in any time soon like what what happens then uh in the future to solve the democratic issue uh demographic issue does it affect the culture would you end up uh you know uh maybe because there's a bunch of Australians right you've got a deep relationship with Australian uh mining you know just import a town of Australia and we create the the mix of the of the cultures create a an Australian Mongolian lineage they can be the next cons.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:26

Yeah well you you could we could look at immigration from historical and contemporary perspective right you you like you look at Chingishan's era Mongolia was like multiracial we had so many ethnic groups you know you still have Khazaras in Afghanistan and they're saying I'm Mongolian you go to Turkey and they will say oh I'm half Mongolian right you go to Central Asia they're saying I'm half Mongolian that type of thing historically we are non-homogeneous right but you look at modern Mongolia it's very very homogeneous but you do still have some mixed um mixed marriages right we've been under uh Manchuqing for 200 200 years so you have half Chinese bloods right you have some Russians Russian Mongolian bloods it it depends on where like which provinces you're you live in but the idea of make making Mongolia a salad bowl right we say in in the States is a mixing mixing salad bowl right it I would say it's quite raw right now because even if Mongolia recognizes that it has a democratic major issue I don't think that is the way that the nation would go about but now this is just my perspective and not because Mongolia doesn't want any mixed race children it's just that they're not ready you know developmental wise um culturally we're very cultural you know protective people they don't even want mine so why would you some foreigner come in and start changing ethnic groups so that that sense is really deep in the in the culture of Mongolia. It is it is and my family so in Mongolian culture you follow your father's side right I'm from Western Mongolia so because I follow my father's side and you have the eastern Mongolia even there's like even if we're all Mongolian there's still that little I'm from this province you're from this province type of w what like what would you call it? They they want to be better than one another. Yeah it's a it's a I'm gonna give you an example competitive yeah so the northern people would say like oh the go be like the desert people Okay? Because you're north, you have the mountains. And then the Gobi people would say, oh, the mountain people. So those type of things. So until everyone accepts that you're just Mongolian, you're like people, it doesn't matter if you're from if you're from mountain or gobi desert or west or south.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:21

Until that's uh you a desert or a mountain person?

SPEAKER_02 1:28:26

I'm Western Mongolian. I love the rivers.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:30

So what is that? Uh a river. You're a river person.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:34

I would say I'm definitely a river person. Let me respond to the immigration question. Um Mongolia is pretty pretty pretty rough on immigration. Um, you know, obviously Jack didn't get the passport. He it's hard. I don't know if it's because we want to stay homogenous, but I don't see solving demographics gonna go towards bringing immigration.

unknown 1:28:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:59

Um we've been talking for a while. There's really two or three more questions I'd like to ask. You got the time for it?

SPEAKER_01 1:29:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:08

Okay, so we can't talk about um Mongolia without bringing up its giant southern neighbor. So interesting detail about Inner Mongolia, which is a state in China, is that it has a higher ethnic population of Mongolias than Mongolia itself. So talk about the relationship with China um geopolitically, uh, but then as well culturally.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:38

Okay, so we're starting with Inner Mongolia and then then China.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:41

Wherever you want to go. The whole qu the it's all in there.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:44

Okay. Um in the literature of Mongolian history, you will find Inner Mongolia and Outer Mongolia. Um ethnically, you're talking about the same people, right? You just separated. Inner is part of China, outer Mongolia is outside of Mongolia. Um historically, Inner Mongolians are counted as Mongolian ethnics. If you discount the politics of it, modern Mongolian population still sees Inner Mongolia as Mongolian. But if you ask them which country are they from, they would say China because Inner Mongolia is no longer Mongolian territory, right? They the Mongolian government does not govern the Inner Mongolian people. But do they use the same languages? Yes. Um, Inner Mongolians are the highest number of Mongolian population on earth that still uses Mongolian traditional writing. Okay? Now that plays an important role in maintaining Mongolian culture. So Inner Mongolians play an important role in continuing that language, that literature, right? So modern Mongolia, we have two, we have uh Cyrillic and the traditional. Right now we use both. You take Uai the traditional one, the Inner Mongolians are the only Mongolian ethnic groups. So because Mongolia uses both Cyrillics and tradition, that makes Inner Mongolian Mongolian because they're part of the Mongolian culture and language and literature. Okay? This is this is one aspect. Um culturally, they celebrate similar um same holidays. So we have summer nadam, we have Mongolian New Year is usually it's like a month behind Chinese lunar New Year's. So the cultural aspects are definitely there for one. Now you look at Inner Mongolia from the government's perspective, it's different because when Mongolia and China become uh diplomatic, you know, when they establish diplomatic relations, as with any country, they sign saying we're not gonna get involved in your domestic issues. Okay? So you look at Inner Mongolia, as I said earlier, the Mongolian government does not govern Inner Mongolia, even though they are the ethnic same people. The Chinese government governs Inner Mongolia. So with that said, the perspective from the Mongolian people towards Mongolian, Inner Mongolian, the government's policy toward Inner Mongolian are totally different. Okay, you can ask, you can ask a civilian like me, ask about Inner Mongolian, I just told you, you ask somebody from the government about the Inner Mongolian policy, they would tell you Chinese policy. Because you're not talking about a certain population, you're talking about two countries' relations concerning Inner Mongolian and Uyghurs are exactly the same. Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:00

And the broader um cultural and geopolitical relationship with China, because I saw in the news uh a couple well, at least maybe it was a year ago now, but there was a whole thing about the Chinese the CCP um enforcing people in inner Mongolia to not speak that language, not learn that language. Um this is obviously for a very proud cultural people in Mongolia, like um a huge problem. So the the sort of diplomatic relationship with China, the geopolitical relationship with China, you know, talk about China.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:39

Yes. So Mongolia-China relations are I would say it's complicated, it requires a lot of diplomatic maneuvering, you know, shall I say. But remember, guys, I'm a researcher, I'm not a diplomat. But the the there are so many things that social things that Mongolia and China need to stay away from each other's issues. So for example, when the CCP, now when I say China, there are so many different governments, administrations, Mongolia too. You know, we could break it down into Ho Jin Tao and the Xi Jinping, or we could talk about Batolga, you know, other former presidents, how they dealt with China within four years, eight years, etc. etc. China is Mongolia's traditional neighbor. We call traditional neighbor China and Russia, right? We only have two traditional neighbors. So there are things that um that are, I don't want to say like they understood each other without saying things, right? But the people have the right to question. For example, when CCP passed the Mongolians, and it wasn't just Mongolians, they used the Uyghurs not to use their you know language and cultural activities too, is that in a way that affected inner Mongolians preserving their national identity language. Okay, there were Mongolians were they actually protested in Washington, DC. There were people um gathered around and protested the CCP's decision. But if you look at it from the Chinese perspective, China is just trying to strengthen, strengthen or unify their people, right? Now I don't know if they think hung race is stronger than Inner Mongolian or weaker, I don't know that aspect. But if the CCP is really saying everyone's hung, because they're not, right? We all know that. They are China is also very, very diverse. So in a way, I think they were making sure that everyone knew Mandarin Chinese versus saying everyone should be hung Chinese. But then you read reports from like, you know, people who left China and really speaking out looking for political asylum in Europe or in UK, they're saying that there is so much control towards those minority groups. So maybe the goal is something different than just learning a language, it's more of a similar assimilation, assimilation techniques, right? So you could look at it from that perspective and then how Mongolia responded, okay? Again, Mongolia has only two neighbors, so there are certain things that you can get involved in, but I think inner Mongolian Uyghur stuff is out of the question because when you establish diplomatic relations on a government level, you said we're not gonna get involved in domestic issues. So if Mongolia were to have a protest, the Mongolian government is expecting both China and Russia not to act because we're independent. We don't need your influence, we don't need your saying what are we gonna do do with our people or how to handle our protests, right? So in a way it's kind of like win-win. But if you look at it from Western perspective, they're probably saying, Mongolian government, why aren't you saying anything? Inner Mongolians, you're the same people, you know, part of your populations are being basically abused for stuff their culture and language, and now they're forced to speak a basically a foreign language. But most inner Mongolians are bilingual. You know, they when they speak Mongolian, they have accent. They like I I speak different Mongolian than Inner Mongolians.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:50

I I think um considering that you have these two um you know superpowers as neighbors, and you're a little three million population country, uh you do punch so ridiculously high above your weight um culturally. Obviously, Chingis Khan is a huge reason for that. But um I I I found it interesting uh like as a detail that say South Korean or Japanese culture informed you more than say did Chinese or Russian. Like that sort of says a lot, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02 1:38:22

Yeah, so it goes back to it goes back to history and what Mongolians have learned throughout its history, right? They throughout different administrations, the Manchus and Qings have always claimed that Outer Mongolia was kind of like Inner Mongolia, so that that sentiment, those literature is kind of drilled into Mongolia. So everything you do is you don't want to be assimilated, right? It would be so easy to assimilate with Chinese or even South Korean or Japanese. I don't want to say culturally, but even like racially, right? But Europeans are different. You try to assimilate Mongolians with Russians, it's gonna take so so many years, right? Much longer than you're assimilating Asians with Asians. Um but I think from sovereignty and independence perspective for Mongolia, just you know, 3.3 million, I think we have to protect our nationality. And we are different, you know, we have a different history, we have different cultures, we have different languages. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:47

Alright, mate. Well, I think uh this has been this has done justice to at least a little bit of an introduction to Mongolia. Talk a little bit about the book you're writing. What's the um what's it about?

SPEAKER_02 1:39:59

So I started writing this book when I was pursuing my master's degree three years ago. It's part of my master's capstone. It basically covers all of Mongolia's diplomatic history uh within an international relations. Uh activities such as regional and global wars and where Mongolia was. The book itself is intended to let the reader know that when these activities, when these major events were happening, Mongolia was doing this and we weren't just sitting still. Um because Mongolia is a small state, it we tend to get overlooked a lot. So I wanted to get it out there, show the world that there's Mongolia between Russia and China, but we were also internationally involved.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:55

And when's that gonna be published?

SPEAKER_02 1:40:57

Oh, you know, it's such a long process, and because of my experience, I'm asking I'm getting a lot of help from you know diplomats and some people who have been in the field for such a long time, so I don't sound like an idiot. So, but I'm hoping to get a to get it published by this fall. So I'm I'm close. I just need to do more work.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:24

Alright. Uh finally, these are two questions I try to ask every guest who comes on the the podcast. The first of which being, uh, what is a country that you're particularly bullish on?

SPEAKER_02 1:41:36

I have to think about that one. I mean, if you look at it from international relations perspective, it's it the world is such a such a bad place right now, and I'm in the States, I'm looking at it from kind of like a superpower perspective, but I think I think China would succeed.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:00

But again, I said I'm looking at it from a superpower perspective, right? Um China will succeed because they have the manpower, they have the economic ambition, they have so many people, so the work work labor is there, but at the same time, they're not open, they're very authoritarian, so I don't know. Um yeah. I'm gonna Sorry if you weren't expecting me to say China, but but there is an issue. There's definitely so many issues, but I don't know if they're gonna get over it because it it's too big. It's very big. They have they have a very big problem. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:42

Have you heard of a guy called Peter Zihan?

SPEAKER_01 1:42:46

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:48

Okay. Uh he is um a geopolitical analyst who became quite famous this year. Um but I'll s I'll I'll I'll send you his name after you can look him up. He um he would disagree with your outlook on China, and so it might be really interesting for you to see, you know, what why he's thinking that. I mean, if you can hook up with a guy, it'd be amazing. He's in uh he's in the US, and um I personally I think uh like a really really interesting guy. Um okay, final question.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:22

Well, but but the another thing is like I said, you're looking at it from a superpower perspective, but US is still leading, you know. I think with with military, it it really depends on which area you're talking about. Like US will definitely lead the militarily, technologically, like intellectual property-wise, US will lead. But that's why I said China has so many problems, and I just don't know if they're gonna to open it up.

unknown 1:43:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:53

Yeah. I guess at the end of the day, um absolutely none of us know. Um exactly. You know, you can't predict a future of infinite possibilities based off a finite experience of the past. There is no you know, we can only speak with degrees of confidence. So um Peter Zihan speaks with a hundred percent confidence, which is maybe why he's such a compelling guy to listen to, but you know, it a little bit more humility might be nice, but yeah, interesting. Okay, my lord, final question if you could witness a conversation between any two people of history, dead or alive, no language barrier, so a podcast, who are you listening to?

SPEAKER_02 1:44:39

I would listen to the three people that were uh dis uh during Yalta Yalta conference in 1945. Um I'm a stronger believer of that we don't know anything because when once you come to a certain position, you know everything what's going on, and the decision changes, your perspective changes, kind of like presidents, right? I think presidents know way, way, way more. They're totally what they're saying is totally different than what they're telling the public. Um, whether it's paranoia or they don't trust how their citizens will react. So I would love to listen to Churchill, Stalin, and Roosevelt what they were talking about in the small dark room, and they came out and took that picture which changed the world.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:38

Oh, that would be unbelievable.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:40

I want to know what they were really, really talking about.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:44

Alright, well, I can't thank you enough for being so generous with your time and generous with your responses as well. Um, yeah, I have a I have a huge soft spot for Mongolia, and I uh I romanticize the idea of one day going there and buying a horse and just popping into people's uh gears along the way. Sounds amazing, sounds like some milk.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:14

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:15

Sounds free. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:18

So thank you very much.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:19

Thank you, Ryan. I really enjoyed talking with you.