Chris Arnade | 'Walks The World' & Absorbs Australia In Full

Subscribe to Chris Arnade's Substack - https://walkingtheworld.substack.com/

Who is Chris Arnade!

He started as a physicist, earning a PHD from Johns Hopkins and then took to Wall St spending two decades on an elite trading desk at CitiGroup before disillusioning his well dressed allies to engage in the photography, walking and writing of the great and forgotten cities of this world. 

He is a best selling author, but as well… a best subscribed substacker!

'Chris Arnade Walks The World' is the publications name…

And in it, Chris lives up to the title. 

Japan, Europe, China, Australia, The Faroe Islands, Canada, the expansive US of A, Turkey, Korea, Indonesia even Uzbekistan (which gets a special mention in this podcast). Cities within all of these great nations and many more, Chris has trod and documented. 

His format is slow and empathetic. Chris will embark on several 20-30km journeys at his location, take photos and then report on his walk. 

I can’t remember how long I’ve been subscribed, although it feels like years, but the other day I woke up to an email which detailed Chris’s initial impressions of Sydney! I replied to the email right away, and just a few hours later was guiding him along the Malabar to Bondi trail. Steve and I - guiding Chris from the area I grew up to the most iconic beach in Australia. 

That was a special serendipity which came out of no-where and furthermore, led to this podcast today...

• 00:00 Introduction to Chris Arnade — physicist, Wall Street trader, turned global walker/writer.
• 02:00 First impressions of Sydney — “child of LA and London,” with beaches, pubs, suburbs, and good living.

Sydney Observations

• 03:40 Sydney’s trains: efficient, sprawling, but designed to avoid beaches.
• 06:00 Sydney friendliness vs. UK cynicism — “Australians are like puppy dogs, eager to please.”
• 09:30 Suburbs as “democratized manors,” good life for the average person, housing affordability issues.
• 13:00 Housing supply constraints, coastline beauty, and why Sydney isn’t as bad as people think.

Walking & Method

• 16:30 From physics & Wall Street to walking: walks as stress relief, learning, meditation.
• 20:30 Spreadsheet brain → toy models → refining worldview through walking.
• 22:30 Cities that defied expectations: Tashkent & Jakarta.

Global Perspectives

• 25:30 Africa’s challenges: Nigeria & Dakar as examples of dysfunction despite resources.
• 29:00 Australia’s weak ties with Indonesia, lack of Indonesians in Sydney, food culture, overlapping economic models.
• 33:30 Chinese-Indonesian business dominance — parallels to Jews, Lebanese, minorities elsewhere.
• 36:00 High-trust vs. low-trust societies: Japan as the archetype.

Culture & Writing

• 41:30 Why he avoids fame, prefers anonymity, but respects subscribers deeply.
• 44:00 Pressure to deliver as a Substack writer — treating it like a job.
• 47:00 Writing inspiration, uninspired cities (Bangkok), and the challenges of always producing.
• 53:00 Strong opinions drive traffic

Dignity & Underclass

• 55:00 “Dignity” project in the US — underclass and addiction.

Personal Life

• 56:20 Family and frugality
• 58:50 Why he doesn’t read other travel writers

Philosophy & Serendipity

• 01:04:50 Serendipity? “I don’t believe in coincidence.” 
• 01:07:00  Country he’s most bullish on
• 01:09:00 Next destinations

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Who is Chris Annade? Well, many things. He started as a physicist, earning a PhD from Johns Hopkins, and then took to Wall Street, spending two decades on an elite trading desk at Citigroup before disillusioning his well-dressed allies to engage in the photography, walking, and writing of the great and forgotten cities of the world. He's a best-selling author, but as well a best subscribed substacker. Chris Anade Walks the World is the publication's name, and in it, Chris lives it up to the title. Japan, Europe, China, Australia, the Faroe Islands, Canada, the expansive US of A, Turkey, Korea, Indonesia, even Uzbekistan, which gets a special mention in this podcast. Cities within all of these great nations and many more Chris has trod and documented. His format is slow and empathetic. Chris will embark on several 20 to 30 kilometer journeys at a location, take photos, and then report on his walk. I can't remember how long I've been subscribed, although it feels like years, but the other day I woke up to an email which detailed Chris's initial impressions of Sydney. I replied to the email right away, and just a few hours later was guiding him along the Malabadabundai Trail. Steve and I walking alongside Chris from the area I grew up to the most iconic beach in Australia. This was a special serendipity which came out of nowhere and furthermore led to this podcast today. We recorded this interview on the rooftop of my apartment building, and with no further ado, here it is. Well then I reckon the best place to start would be your impressions of Sydney.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Um it's a wonderful city. Uh I call it uh I think it's I think the thing I said was it's the um it's like the a child of LA and um and London that's inherited the best qualities of each. Um from LA it's got this beautiful setting, which you know I can see now up here on your roof, and um wonderful trees, beautiful beaches, uh great coastline, uh great climate, and from uh and space. And uh from London it's gotten pretty much everything else. Kind of an English pub culture, uh uh, you know, a culture of uh going to sports um and kind of you know what I would call good living um in the English manner. Um but it's also a city of suburbs. Like what's kind of striking is when you walk around here, it's um you really feel like in many ways that you're kind of in a in a in a a clean um safe version of the U.S. suburbs because m everybody has a small home um with a yard that's immaculately kept and you know with garden um and maybe uh a you know a a small boat parked out front of the house uh that they use on the weekends. It's it's kind of uh I I think you know what you people would call normies have a pretty good life here.

SPEAKER_04 2:51

It's funny you were uh just saying earlier, or rather, I think it's funny that you've probably seen intimately quite a lot more of Sydney than most people might who grew up and live here. Uh for instance you were just saying how you got on the train north, got on the train west, got on the train south, and would just get off at a random point and walk between twenty, fifteen, twenty kilometers a day. Correct.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

Uh when the weather when the weather would allow me, it's not it's been rainy the last uh much of my time here. But yeah, I mean I I just kind of take the subway generally. The subways here, the metros, the trains, whatever you want to call them, they don't go to the coast, which is a notable. Um I think that's intentional. Um they want to keep people away from the beaches um for some reason. But uh they go out west. You reckon it's by design. Yeah, I think it's by design. Uh it doesn't it doesn't surprise me that the uh the only line going going e going out toward the beaches stops about a mile short of Bondi Beach. Totally, yeah. Um so um yeah, so they kind of sprawl out, the the lines sprawl out, and they're good. They're really fast, they're clean, they come regularly, but and they go fast. So you can you can be you can live, you know, thirty kilometers, forty kilometers outside of the city and be inside being be downtown in thirty minutes. Um so uh it's all very and you know those places are they're huge. The neighborhoods out there are are just massive. Um they're not high density, not like um you see in kind of other Asian cities, and you they don't have a lot of office towers, they don't have a lot of apartment buildings, it's just a lot of small ranch style homes on on like a quarter acre of land.

SPEAKER_04 4:32

How much of the culture do you think you can infer from just walking around various parts of it over a number of days?

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Um I think quite a bit. You know, it helps that obviously I speak the language, although I will tell you there are times I just don't understand what people say here. I absolutely do not understand, uh especially in the more working class neighborhoods. I there are people who will say things and I I just don't know what they're saying. Um But you know, I mean uh hopefully I've gotten pretty good at just observing by just walking and just sitting in, you know, cafes and talking or just watching people. Um and you know, I spent a fair amount of time in my life in in in in in in UK, both living there and then walking around it. And there are times here, or especially early on, where when I was kind of delusional from jet lag where I really felt like I was in London. Right. Um, you know, and then I just I'll look up and then I'll say, oh well, there's a harbor. You know, London doesn't have a harbor. Um you know, you see that especially on on the high streets. You know, you've inherited the kind of English idea of you have you know suburban, you have houses and then you have one high street in in in each neighborhood where you put all the you put the chemist and the pharmacy and the and the restaurants and the cafes, and so that that feels very much the case. You still have that here.

SPEAKER_04 5:54

A are you a are you a chatty fella when you're going around? Do you find yourself?

SPEAKER_00 5:58

Yeah, in general, I mean, in general, I mean when my mood is uh my mood is usually good. Um the weather I will say again the weather has kind of got me down at times. It was the i it's it's been yeah, you know, I for for your listeners who are not in Sydney, it's probably been some of the ten wettest days in in in the recent past of Sydney, I've been told. Um but yeah, you know, I I t I tend to just talk to people. Um you know, I I just kind of go up and just ask them questions. And in general, everybody's been friendly here. People people in um Australia are remarkably friendly. That's the biggest difference between here and UK. That's nice. Um it's almost like, you know, I think I'm gonna guess the English would make fun of you and say you're almost like puppy dogs. Like, you know, it's just like the yippie puppy dog who just wants to keep on getting pet. Um there is a there is a sense of like immense uh people people want to be agreeable um in a way that's I find refreshing, but I can imagine would grow old after a while if you if you're kind of a cynical person.

SPEAKER_04 7:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:03

Do you think you're a cynical person? Uh there are times I'm tend to I tend to it. I try not to be. Um, you know, I think um you you it's something you always as any if you're an intellectual you have to fight cynicism pretty pretty hard to not to not descend into it.

SPEAKER_04 7:18

Not just be overcome by all the problems that you can't help but uh notice.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

Exactly. Um, you know, and uh and uh you know there are there are there are times when when you travel you feel there are moments when you feel completely isolated and so that kind of can become almost a defensive cynicism.

SPEAKER_04 7:38

Take the other day, for instance, when you uh posted something and then within a few hours you had a couple of people from that city writing to you saying, Hey, I'm in town, I want to meet you, let's go for a walk. Is that something you enjoy or is that also very mood dependent?

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Sometimes it is I I enjoy that. Um it it happens it doesn't happen it happens in general in obvious big cities like Sydney. It doesn't happen. It happens far less in places, you know, the places I go more often are like Ulampatar, Mongolia. Oh totally. You know, I I don't get people saying they want to walk with me. Um so yeah, I I I appreciate it. It's it's a nice change of pace. Um you know I I am by myself so often, and I I do like to be by myself. Uh it's not it's not a complaint. Um I feel like I can think better that way. Um But yeah, it's it's nice to have people to walk with. Um and Sydney is probably this was probably been the the city where I've gotten the most uh requests to the point where I was at a fact. Yeah, I had to be kind of I I I I probably was unintentionally rude. I didn't mean to be to some people, I just didn't respond. Yeah just because I kind of got what happens is I'll I'll get like a request and I'll just put the person's name down and then I'll put them in parentheses in WhatsApp as Sydney. And I think I have like 30 Sydney re people and I might have got some of you confused or some people I I you know but um yeah, I mean there there is a there is a um there is a friendliness here that I think is uh is at all levels, which is just not true of other cities, and I'm not quite sure why that is, why why Australians are so friendly. Do you have a thesis for why it might be? I mean I you know I think um I think you know some cultures are just path dependent. It just happens. You know, it just becomes part of the national character. Um people almost embrace that. You know, I think there is a um but I also I think there is this idea that it's a good life here. Like I mean, you know, I mean like you know you know, s a friend of mine who is who does similar similar things as me suggested, you know, after reading my piece, suggested that, you know, it wasn't really all that deep that that Australia is really just England with good weather. And you know, that makes that makes you know I think it's deeper than that. What about the class structure inherited? I mean the class the lack of structure is huge. That's that's the whole point of the suburbs, right? Like, you know, the suburbs are in many ways kind of a democratized version of the the the manor, you know, with you know, in in a very almost cos-playing being a lord. You have your you have your own you have your own um your own kingdom, you know, and and sure you have a next kingdom is is f three f three meters away, um, but like you have your space, yeah, you know, and you you you're you know you you have the car, you have the boat. Yeah. It's a good it's I mean it's I again I don't want to sound dismissive, it's a very good life here. And um I think of all the countries I've been in, and certainly the first world countries, I think Australia does the best providing the most people the kind of most comfortable life. Yeah. You know, um like if you're you know yeah, I think Australians don't have any perspective on how violent the US is. Um, you know, when so when when people told me, you know, qu the bad neighborhoods here, um uh you know, I went to them and they weren't bad. Not by US standards at all. You know, I didn't feel any sense of um, you know, there was some litter here, um, you know, there was a little bit, you know, houses might have been a little bit more run down. Um you know, English was less less spoken, um, but there there was no sense of of of kind of a uh of danger.

SPEAKER_04 11:28

Right. Well, you know, we are self-branded the the lucky country. And so, like you say, that the cultures might be path dependent, having this idea, one that you grow up with, that there is just by good fortune, you happen to have the great weather, access to the beaches, you know, a pretty thriving labor market, the one complaint consistently is just the cost of things, but that's kind of a perennial universal complaint nonetheless.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

Yeah, the um I was talking to a friend of mine who's an economist and um the the the the the problems that uh people here complain about, housing costs primarily, um are the same in UK and the same in Canada and the same in the US. It's almost like the English speaking world has inherited this. And I think it has to do with kind of what I'm gonna write about next, which is just this what I was just talking about, is the wanting the suburban life. You know, it takes up a lot of space. Totally. And consequently, um, you know, it just costs more. Yeah. Um, you know high density living is is you know, that that that that for instance the Chinese or the Indians or or even the Germans and French might find more acceptable. I just think the UK English speaking world doesn't view as kind of aspir as a r they don't want to aspire to that.

SPEAKER_04 12:54

You know, what we're looking over here is Kensington, Randwick, Paddington, Moor Park, Rosebay, Surrey Hills, even half the getting into the city and I don't know, there's maybe ten, fifteen towers and thousands and thousands of more lower houses. It's just exactly that point. I I think that a lot of people can wax lyrical about state policies for limited housing and so forth, but there's just a fixed amount of supply and excess demand. Yeah, I think the other thing becomes expensive.

SPEAKER_00 13:25

The other thing here is um you know, uh we you walked with me for part of the walk where I walk from um what was the South Beach called? Malabar. Malabar to Bondi, and then I walk from Ba Bondi to um to um Paddington. Um and that coastline is absolutely gorgeous. Yeah. And nobody's gonna nobody who currently owns a home on there is going to let that value be eroded by by constructing other homes next to it, by having towers. Um I mean, you know, and you can't blame them. Like, um, so in some senses, Sydney is um gifted with this, you know, these beautiful geography, but it also causes the housing prices to be kind of I can understand there being a draw to being towards the towards the shore. Now, I mean the West is much more, you know, the West I will I walk I focused on is much more aff affordable. Um and I actually would say that you know I understand people would rather be next to um one of the beaches we walk through within you know a mile of that. Um and as I spoke about getting from the west to the beaches is is unnecessarily hard, but getting from the west into the city is fast. You know, the the rail the rail lines are efficient, they move quickly. You have express trains. So, you know, I was in um I was pretty far south of the city yesterday. And I was a I was able to get into the get into CBD within you know 30 minutes. Someone texted me and said, look, can you meet me at blank? And I was there in 30 minutes. Um I jumped on a bus which took me to the express train, which took me to the train, and you know, that's not the US doesn't have that. Um the UK has less of that. Um Canada doesn't doesn't have that. So in that sense, you have the infrastructure to sprawl. So, you know, if I was you know, obviously nobody wants to give up on the dream of living next to the beach, but you know, I was down south of the airport and there's beaches there. Um and they're really nice. Um and it certainly looks much more affordable than than what it is um kind of near Bondi. So there there is a lot of um options here that I think a lot of people kind of I think I don't think Sydney is in as bad a position as people think it is.

SPEAKER_04 15:53

Which is interesting for you to say because you do have this global perspective. How many cities has it now that you've reported from?

SPEAKER_00 15:59

I I don't even, you know. It's sixty, it's seventy. Um so yeah, I mean, you know, it it's uh I you know I presume a lot of people who are listening to this are Australians and are in Sydney, and I'm not really blowing smoke up their ass when I say it's a big it's a really great city. Like, you know, I'm I'm not lying, just to to make people here happy. Um I think that I think the problem comes and you know, I think when when people tend to, you know, there's always this tendency that you want to find the b better thing. Right. So this is the assumption that maybe you are the best thing, yeah, you know, is just just i is considered wrong. Um you know, I could easily see being happy here. Um it provides a good life.

SPEAKER_04 16:46

But let's speak a little bit more about you. So you mentioned how you kind of like to retreat into into solitude and be alone. You know, this is quite the intriguing post-retirement hobby that you have adopted. Do you remember what the impetus was that drew you towards in the first place?

SPEAKER_00 17:03

Um you know, I've always liked um I have a I have a background where I'm uh I come from a uh from both uh a scientific background, I have a PhD in physics, and then from there I went to Wall Street. Um so I was a banker for 20 years. And in both of those cases, it was very um numbers-oriented. I was focused on kind of a friend of mine has coined the term spreadsheet brain. It's very spreadsheet brain, um, where you, you know, are um kind of just looking at everything in a very analytic number, or you know, you s you you're stuck in a room, um, looking at a wall of sc computers, flashing numbers. And that just kind of lost its appeal after a certain point when I realized that that's really not how most people live. That's not how most people view the world, that's not how most people see the world. And so I always enjoyed long walks as a way to kind of get a different perspective or just just just to lower stress from from being in finance or you know, or coding or doing whatever you do when you you look at a wall of computers. So walking was always my way of kind of uh kind of relaxing in a way. And then it really became also a way of learning. And I realized during those walks I was actually learning um as much as I was uh relaxing. And so I do find that relaxing, like you know, part of the problem with being here, um not being able to walk as much as I want to because of the weather. And I've also had some back problems recently, which is um which is rare. So I get kind of I do, you know, I get I do get kind of in a bad mood when I can't walk because um it's really how I um it's my form of meditation, it's how I stay in shape, it's how I s how I um think. You know, I I listen to a lot of books when I'm walking, um or just just thinking. Yeah. And so it's hard not to walk for me. Um and that it makes it really kind of and so in in many ways um it's kind of my therapy or my my form of meditation.

SPEAKER_04 19:05

Do you still apply that Excel sheet brain and the uh immense education that you spoke quite a lot about on Tyler Cohen's uh episode from trading developing markets? Do you apply that worldview to when you are walking through Ulim Batar or Ho Chi Minh? Yeah, I think. Do you think it provides a a richer experience of knowing where you are?

SPEAKER_00 19:24

I mean, uh you know, I do have a finance background and a physics background, so I tend to still you I'm still a scientist. Um I still think about things in economic frameworks. So, you know, uh you know, I I always build what I call a toy model. I'm just that's just how I traded. I was a macro trader. Um so I tend to do that when I approach a a new country, like you know, I built a toy model for Australian economy. And then as I'm walking, I'm kind of like refining that model to see like does does this work? Does this fit with what I see? Um and so so I I do kind of have a still a spreadsheet brain in terms of how I think about I love that. Um how I think about the world. Um but then you know it's kind of like the uh um kind of a Bayesian statistics method where where I go out and walk and that's what kind of re that input changes my my f my framework. Sure. Um, you know, so I'm always building kind of a model of and that and that was that's still very much the spreadsheet bringing.

SPEAKER_04 20:29

Which which city has most contradicted the toy model you built?

SPEAKER_00 20:32

Oh that's a good question. Which is the city has um which city has I mo have I most been surprised by? Yeah. Um I think the city that most um kind of caught me off guard in terms of um like I I I just didn't expect this was um it's a strange answer, but um I just was in Tash Tashkent, which is the capital of Uzbekistan. Oh, I love that. And um just a lovely city. And um I had kind of I didn't know a lot about Uzbekistan. Um I knew like a lot of the stands, it kind of was a mineral-rich country that um you know uh that kind of exported um, you know, I think I think in Uzbekistan's case it's um it's uh it's gold. Um but um you know, and I know it had an authoritarian leader who was kind of a post-Soviet dictator type. Um but I um I didn't expect to find it to be as uh pleasant of a city and as livable as a city and as a rel and it's very Muslim um uh and as um kind of friendly as a city as I did. And it in in an odd way open city. I mean it you know, it has this repress quote repressive regime, but it doesn't feel like that at all. Um and so it was kind of one of those places where, you know. kind of the you know mis most misunderstood city. I think nobody thinks about going you know no no passport bro or Passport bro.

SPEAKER_04 22:12

What's that someone collecting stamps?

SPEAKER_00 22:14

No, that's kind of the guy who's a may maybe some of your listeners, and I don't mean this in a derogatory way, but it's kind of the the the programmer who can work from anywhere. Okay. And does it a digital nomad Yeah digital nomad does it from no does it from um Portugal or something. Tashkin is where I would do that. Right on if if I was like um you know uh if I was a um programmer I could work from anywhere in the world you know Tashkin would be up in the list. Um but um you know I think um I I I go in I very rarely go into a place um cold in the sense of my work in finance my 20 years of finance I grew up traveling my work in finance had given me a lot of perspective. I think Jakarta is another one that was um you know kind of conf Jakarta from a Jakarta from a um Indonesia in general from a statistical level if you're just looking at it on a spreadsheet and you're building models based on kind of like this should be you know that the these five factors should make this place functional these five factors should make Jakarta should Jakarta should be a lot more chaotic than it is um and Indonesian society should be a lot more violent than it is whereas um you know Jakarta you know has um crime statistics that m are almost equivalent to Scandinavia being even though it's like a hundred times poorer. Right. So Jakarta is one of those cities that is just very well it works very well. The culture there works very well the society works very well in in a in a way that makes even despite the poverty and despite a lot of the problems traffic being one of them just prov makes makes for people relatively happy people.

SPEAKER_04 24:10

And Jakarta rather Indonesia aren't they projected to be one of the top five most populous and biggest economies in the world in the next 10-15 years?

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Yeah I mean you know Do you find this sort of stuff a little bit BS, that prediction? Yeah I find most of it BS like you know there's a a lot of this is analysis by people who've never gone to these places. And I have a I have a lot of like re I have a lot of respect for the Indonesians but they have some geographical constraints like just getting around is hard. Yeah did you see that they're trying to move the capital city into a a new jungle territory. I mean it's you know just the weather is atrocious um getting getting around is you know it's is scattered over so many different islands. And they have a bunch of different natural resources. And so I think you know I I think I would in general bet on Indonesia going forward. I I don't think it's going to be you know the superpower anytime soon. And then you know the continual and I think people do this because they don't want to be I think there's there's pundits out there who do it just because they don't want to be seen as being um politically incorrect. They'll just say you know Sub Saharan Africa is our future. It's not our future. Yeah. What makes you say that? I mean it's just it's it's it's just chaotic. Yeah. It's so just a population boom doesn't immediately power and significant And you just can't run the the thing forward and say it you know because their population is growing because you know because the Asian miracle we're gonna have a sub Saharan African miracle. There's just you know there's just intractable currently intractable problems that that y you you see when you get there that are not going to be um not going to be fixed anytime soon. Like you know Nigeria is a country gifted with immense um resources. Um it's a fucking shit show. Like I you know I um you know I I I probably the probably the hardest place I've been is is Dakar. And again, you know um you you can't see it from the spreadsheet. Like it's just it's just a dysfunctional place at so many different levels. Yeah and it's it's a real it's a real tragedy in many ways as the dysfunctional is this that's not something I'm pr I'm happy about. That's just very very very depressing. Talk us through some of the dysfunction. Um you know it's just things just don't get done like I you know th there's a broken culture in many ways um there's not a sense of and I think a lot of it has become um there's a there's you know the the foreign aid um the you know sixty years, eighty years a hundred years of a kind of um kind of foreign aid and kind of um has really hollowed out uh in any kind of locally produced sense of uh because it created a type of dependence yeah oh definitely um you know and and then the foreign aid the whole foreign aid infrastructure complex industry, whatever you want to call it is completely removed in many ways from the people. Like it's it's really can be depressing to be there. You see these um you know UN type truck vehicles that and you know these people who you know are working for for institutions that are well intentioned um but they fly in, they get into a Limo um go into a gated compound and you know live a life that's entirely different from from the locals. And um you know I mean one of the things I'll never forget you know I walked all over Dakar um even into you know neighbors I was told not to go to and you know it was safe. There there was never that it's a it's a it's a respectful the people are fine. It's a it's a good group of people. It's a good citizens um decent human beings just like like in any any culture. But you know like I remember this you know watching people start fires for for street food. Yeah the the skewers of meat they s you know they're they're making the fires with plastic. Like I I don't want to eat you know food cooked over plastic.

SPEAKER_04 28:30

It's just there's just a sense of just walk down a street filled with that air.

SPEAKER_00 28:34

Yeah and you know it's just there's a level of um of um there's a level of um desperation desperation filth also that's just just just not healthy. Um and so you know I I just I don't I don't care how many you know natural resources a place like Nigeria has um you know they they can't get their act together. You can blame colonialism I you can blame whatever. I don't care whatever whatever you blame that the net effect is is it's at this at this current juncture I'm not betting on them going forward.

SPEAKER_04 29:11

If you apply your uh old finance worldview what do you make of Australia's lack of coordination collaboration immigration etc with Indonesia this incredibly populous northern neighbor super close lots of natural resources yet there aren't Indonesian restaurants around Sydney um I was listening to a podcast recently talking about the numbers of immigration there's more Indonesian migration into Taiwan than there is Australia.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

Yeah the um you have Vietnamese you have Chinese um you have uh Nepalese um you have Koreans you have uh you don't have you don't have Indonesians um I that's not entirely true there's um there's I've run into a few um kind of uh service workers who are who are from um Indonesia but in general you're you know Indonesia doesn't you know as much as I like Indonesia Indonesian food is crap so that's come on that the idea the best the best Indonesian food I've had was in actually um Amsterdam and it's not the the kind of takeouts, the tokes. Yeah. You don't have those in Jakarta in Jakarta what I ate I've been in collectively in in uh in Jakarta, Bandong and a bunch of small villages three months of my life. And you know all I all I basically eat is all that's available is some version of cheap fried rice man. Friedrich with with 7 Eleven. Yeah with with crap oil. You know the the wonderful food you get in Amsterdam is not something you get most people in in j Indonesia eat. So I but but the lack of kind of um the other thing is like in some senses both if Indonesia and Australia are competing for the same economic model. You're both exporting minerals to um to China who who gives you back manufactured products. So in some senses your competition um you know you you don't have there's not a lot of synergy there. You just you just export materials. No don't say many I think it's mostly Chinese. I mean I'm not an expert on this that's kind of interesting yeah I mean Indonesia is is a is a strange place because um they don't they don't for a place of of such a mint size um they really don't they don't make any splashes in the water. Like you you know when when people talk about India and China and they just they people people just forget Jakarta. Right. Like you know when they talk about the massive global cities, you know Jakarta has what, forty million people? No it's insane. In the area people just people just forget about it. Yeah. It's like it's like it doesn't exist. And I think Indonesia's kind of happy that way. Right. You know they're like they're just they have ambitions to to compete in the world powers. You know I mean you know they they were briefly a part of the non-aligned movement under what's his name, Swar Saharto or s I can't pronounce his name Swarah, the dictator they had for like twenty-five years. Um but since then they've just kind of you know they're just they're probably the most um you know they're the the they are a good trivia answer to people who claim there is no such thing as a Muslim democracy.

SPEAKER_04 32:35

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

They're very Muslim and they're very democratic I think also the largest Muslim country in the world. Yeah so um you know but it's a different type of Islam. Um you know as a as a guy at the Dunkin' Donuts I used to when I was in Jakarta I used to hang out at the Dunkin' Donuts with an old man table. A bunch of Chinese businessmen who invited me for their they get together every day at four. They would invite me to come smoke cigars. I didn't smoke cigars. They they would go into the smoking room and smoke cigars and talk about the smoking rooms at the Duncan's yeah there's a smoking room in the Dunkins and um and the Dunkins are their big kind of that's their big brand there. Alright you can get you can get American Soft Power doing its job. Yeah you can get uh spaghetti boliness from um Dunkin' donuts at five in the at six in the morning um but um one of the Chinese businessmen Indonesian guy who'd been there I mean he's ethnically Chinese but he's Indonesian he told me we have just enough Islam to um keep teens from drinking but not enough that they want to blow things up. Fuck me. That was his kind of crude way of suggesting that it's a it's kind of a moderate Islam. Yeah so um yeah you know it's uh I like I like Jakarta a lot but yeah you're right you know you is it's your closest neighbor. Yeah. Um but you famously um back in the 2000s um made it very clear that you do not want boat people coming from from Jakarta from i from any place in Indonesia any place in the world mostly from Indonesia.

SPEAKER_04 34:02

One more point on Indonesia you uh made a really interesting comment the other day when we were walking around and it was the observation that something like three percent of the ethnic um population within Indonesia is is ethnically Han, so Chinese. Correct. Yet they are by far the powerful elite from political to business.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

Yeah they're they're they're kind of the business class you have that a lot in in third world countries um developing countries whatever you want to call them there's always generally always a an ethnic minority business class. I mean the Jews famously filled that role in much of the Western world um uh in in French Africa it can be Lebanese um and a lot of Asia it's Chinese and Indonesia it's um it's the Chinese um and you know in general like you know if you go to you know you see them they're wealthy um relative to the population so uh Jakarta has like a lot of uh developing countries it has um uh uh b malls big kind of fancy malls where is where the elites go um the kind of malls that feel like you're in um Europe with Sachs Fifth Avenue and uh and perfume stores and Nike stores and and you know all the things yeah um and more boundary but but you when you when you're in those malls you just look around you and it's it's it's highly ethnic Chinese.

SPEAKER_04 35:41

Similar to the observation that the Lebanese um minority in a French speaking country or the Jewish in Europe or the ethnically Chinese in Asia, that's maybe a really important but totally unknown observation you've been able to make because you've walked through all these various places. What are some other observations like that that you've made principally being it's really important to understanding the fabric of this country yet it's totally underappreciated?

SPEAKER_00 36:10

Um I think you know I I think you know it's a hard well faith really matters a lot of people but people know that like uh the faith of a country um but I think you know there there there being some sort of um I've written about it before and it's yeah I just use kind of the the broad term low trust, high trust. Um you know if there's a and it's something that's hard to quantify but you know it when you see it and you and you know it m from and the best way to see is from just walking through these places is you know do is is there a sense of um citizens feeling like they you know if they're not being watched um will they still follow rules? Um you know if they're will they you know will they pay to get on the bus even if it's uh if it's kind of like um not enforced you know there's no policemen around. Um and in general that's kind of the most important um single variable that kind of the low trust high trust dichotomy that that either makes a place work or doesn't.

SPEAKER_04 37:23

So what endears high trust societies?

SPEAKER_00 37:26

I mean Japan's the classic example um Korea um to some surprisingly Indonesia because it's generally people see it as in wealthy countries um Australia has a pretty high trust but is it culture or is it institutions that endear that high trust? Aaron Ross Powell you know that's that's the million dollar question. I mean it's kind of like institu it's a feedback loop between culture and institutions. I mean culture is created by institutions and culture creates institutions. But in general it's it's you know I'm a culturalist in the sense that I think culture determines everything and um you know culture broadly speaking is how you how you view your your your role in the world. Yeah. You know the the amazing thing about humans are um you know the thing about humans that's interesting um like if I were to just take um you um and uh and a monkey and drop you both in the Amazon just nude you're gonna die. The monkey's gonna survive. I could do that with a roach I could do that with a bunch of other lower evolution animals. Humans are remarkably I mean we've it's not not it's not a stretch to say that we're the most successful animal there is um but we're also helpless you know um so I could even take you know five of you you and five mates and just drop you and parachute onto like an island and I I don't know how well you guys would last. I mean but the point being is humans are kind of helpless without the culture they carries with them. You know that's why we have long childhoods because you you basically um you are taught in ag aggregate all these things the accumulated knowledge of past past past people have come before you and that's the strength of humans. If you can't access that then you're just a weakling and so that's our culture that's culture this this this built know this built information. So when you're born if you're raised here in Sydney I mean babies are little sponges. They have they they're blank slates in many senses. They come with nothing and um we effectively you know to to use a provocative word we s we basically groom children into being unnecessarily provocative. Into being what we want. Yeah. So you know a child that's raised in Aussie becomes an Aussie and you think a certain way you and you just kind of can build in certain and some one of the things you learn is like you know do you do you try to you know do you try to cheat the system or not? Right. You know the the classic example I is you know if you've if you've been to Japan um as a New Yorker you come to a street and you know the street's empty. Do you cross it or not? Japanese don't they wait for the light to change. And um you know I remember once on my recent long walk across Japan, it was like 6 30 in the morning I get up I'm out ready to go walk and I come to a busy road or an empty empty road that's like four lanes generally busy but now it's empty because it's six thirty in the morning and the light the pedestrian lights in Japan last a long time sometimes like in you know the the not no walking can be like at two minutes. And they don't time based on the day. So here I am sitting there waiting for the light to change at two six thirty in the morning and across from me is an old woman Japanese woman and I'm not well I'm not gonna cross she if sh I'm not gonna do I'm not you know she's not gonna cross out of respect to her. Out of respect for her and out of the culture you're in. You don't pollute the culture you're in. But it's very hard for me. But that's just a Japanese way. I'm afraid I would fail that cultural test. Yeah you know and and you know that's that's that's in many ways um why they don't like foreigners. Yeah. Because you're a cultural pollutant. You're like you know adding you got clean water and you're adding dirt to it. And so um you know that's something that you can't I mean you know like that's just that that's part of the absorption as a sponge. Yes that you learn as a child and so often you you can do this absurd thing in Japan where they don't litter now. They also don't have garbage cans for some reason. Um so you you if you make the mistake of taking your garb you know your your sandwich wrapper or your coke can out of out of the 7-Even with you you're gonna be holding it for a while unless you know you feel you're comfortable just breaking the law.

SPEAKER_04 42:26

So what do you make about your niche celebrity that you occupy now?

SPEAKER_00 42:32

I don't think I'm a celebrity. I um I enjoyed anonymity um like uh I I d I don't understand people who want to be um who want to be famous um I think one of the one of the nicer cultural um ticks of Wall Street is that generally it's changing a little bit now but generally um finance people in finance would rather be wealthy than rich rather than famous. Right. Um and they'll pay to actually not to be famous. Um I I think wanting to kind of to be recognized or wanting to be um kind of a public figure is is something I've never quite understood. Just but that's my that's my temperament.

SPEAKER_04 43:21

But you have how many thousand subscribers to the Substack?

SPEAKER_00 43:25

Yeah you know that but uh that that's um there you know obviously I enjoy I respect people I have a lot of I'm very flattered um but I like you know in general I like to get the written word to kind of carry the um the strength or the or the spoken word um and not kind of um not try not trying to get too on you know there's a lot of pressure um to kind of appear on to talk about current events um because you know it drives a lot of uh clicks It's just something I'm not really.

SPEAKER_04 44:02

So you're getting inbound for people to ask you to speak about politics.

SPEAKER_00 44:07

Correct. And I um From who Well I mean I did, you know, I did write a book about um Oh right. Because of dignity. Yeah, so uh there I I have dabbled into it. Um and I did write a lot about the rise of Trump back in 2016, 2018, 2019. But um I I find that very boring after a certain point. And uh and it's become so nasty now that it's just not really it's just not a lot to learn. You have to check you have to pick a side and you can't really nuance your way through the discussion because people just want you to pick a side. Um and I think that I think the issues are a little bit more complex than just picking aside. Um so uh you know, and there's a lot of money to picking aside. All right. There's a lot of uh pressure to do that, financial pressure to just kind of say, you know, Trump is Trump is the biggest fascist we've ever seen, he's awful, or that Trump is the you know, is the leader we need in these times. Like you have to choose one of those.

SPEAKER_04 45:12

Do you feel uh additional pressure as your substack grows to to meet the expectations of your audience?

SPEAKER_00 45:21

Yeah, I mean I I I I think if anybody um you know I think I think there's a I think it's an immense uh gift for somebody to to uh to uh subscribe. Um I think there's a huge obligation to to f t to to to should be on any writer. Um a real obligation to deliver. Um you know, I think um uh I think that's uh there's absolutely no you know, to to be a writer is is such a luxury. Like, you know, there's not um people are people are gonna pay you just to think. Like, I mean, you know, it it sometimes people I think in academics forget how how lucky they are. Um and so I I try never to forget that. It's just I would never feel um like this is any this is just you just everything is gravy. Um but you should really feel as a writer. I mean when young writers ask me, I just say you just gotta deliver. Like you gotta treat it like a job. It is a job. You know, um you gotta you gotta you know you gotta get up and you and you shouldn't feel bad about it. You shouldn't feel like, oh woe is me, I have to write a piece. Like, I mean, come on, man. Like this is it's the greatest.

SPEAKER_04 46:45

Yeah, what a privilege. Yeah. So you're gonna go to Townsville uh today, I believe. Tomorrow. Tomorrow. Tomorrow morning. You'll be from Townsville writing about Sydney. Do you ever get into this place where you're like, I don't have anything to say about this city. I I don't know if I need to write anything, and therefore you've gone through places and haven't contributed any script. Any cult.

SPEAKER_00 47:08

There are times I feel like I'm I'm stretching. Um but um I mean one of the things I find I I think every writer feels this at some level is you get tired of your own your own stuff. Right. Um, you know, um and uh so you know you can't imagine that because to you it's obvious. Like, you know, um and it but it's not it's it's not that obvious to others. And so um yeah, there are times when I I don't feel um particularly inspired. I mean, I I'll say that th this next piece, um I didn't really feel inspired until yesterday. I didn't know what I was gonna write about. Um and I was kind of confused. And and that's kind of what I do on my walks is I try to think, like, you know, and uh sometimes it hits you and sometimes it doesn't, you know. I mean like you know, like I think probably my least looking back, my least kind of inspired piece was about Bangkok. Um, you know and um I just didn't I just didn't there's nothing about Bangkok that inspired me. Um you know there was no I didn't come away with any great insight into Bang into Thailand or Bangkok or um but um you know sometimes that just happens.

SPEAKER_04 48:29

W what what is what is an element to your worldview, to this experience that you've had over the last few years writing about all these different cities that you feel people don't necessarily know about you or or understand?

SPEAKER_00 48:43

Um you know one of the things I one of the things I'm proud of, I guess, is the is the way I'd phrase it is um you know there's a lot of subsacts from people who just don't produce content. Like meaning they're sitting in a room watching MSNBC or CNN and then they're just making takes. You know, I mean I'm proud of the fact that I actually provide like I go out and do the walks. Right. Like I I you know uh I think the the again this isn't isn't woe is me because I'm very gifted, but I'm very very fortunate to have the have this. But um you know it's a it there's a lot of logistics. Um there's a lot of um you know business stuff or of just booking flights. Yeah. Um, you know, like just I'm mad at myself and I'm almost kind of it's almost humorous, like um I um we're in Sydney, obviously. I'm talking to you in Sydney, and I'm going to Townsville. When I booked the flight to Townsville, I was here in Sydney, but I booked it from Melbourne to Sydney, to to Townsville. I I don't know why. I don't know why I because I was doing all sorts of things, booking a hotel in Townsville, I was booking my Gray home. You know, you just you just do all these things and you kind of like it's like putting the dominoes in place. And I I was thinking of go, you know, I'm gonna go from Sydney, I'm gonna go from Alice Springs to eventually Melbourne. And somewhere along the line my my brain just broke and I'm and I look at things very carefully, like, okay, flight from Melbourne to to Townsville for Thursday. Like no, I'm I it you know, a day later, I woke up at two in the morning and go, wait, did I just wait, did I just buy a ticket from Melbourne or I'm not? Um so that happens and that's kind of frustrating. Uh so there's a lot of that that is involved in constantly moving. There's just a lot of logistics. And I get I get tired of it. Like it gets very um it gets very it gets very old very quickly.

SPEAKER_04 50:48

When did the subsecs start to take off? When did you start noticing subscribers?

SPEAKER_00 50:53

Um the it's been a steady growth, but um kind of it's been a very steady growth. But the, you know, there every once in a while a few pieces go viral or my version of viral, and that usually that usually does it. In many ways, the the the early success I owe to um um Hacker News, that website. The note. Yeah, it's um it's surprising how much traffic that will drive. It's uh Hacker News is um it's a uh posting board that's been around for 25 years now. Primarily of computer programmers, as you might give in the name, where they um just post links to find news stories. Yeah. And then they have a top, you know, people upvote them and downvote them. And then you have the news story of the day. Um it's very computer programming, bro, autisticky type site. Yeah. Um and a few of my pieces, early pieces, got made news voted number one. Um and that really like that drives traffic. Although I tell you the hackers don't like to subscribe. So it's uh a a little bit of serendipity, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:11

Essentially. You want something good, it picks up.

SPEAKER_00 52:13

You know, I mean look, uh you're not gonna um you gotta have pieces that that that people want to read. Yeah. Um and the pieces have to move. Yeah. The pieces have to have uh the thing I've learned over time is that you can't, or at least I can't, pull away with just writing stuff that where it just kind of bogs down into just esoteric stuff. You just your pieces have to move. People only have so much time. Right. Um they they only have so much um, you know, so it's a lot to ask someone to read a piece of yours, so you better give them something. Do you have a piece you're most proud of? I like my ones on China. Um, you know, people don't like my ones on China. I really like Because it's sympathetic towards the nation. Um, you know, I think they're a little bit more um thoughtful than most pieces on China. Um I uh written three of them and um I like each of them. Um but you know the one that's done the best was the one on Phoenix, which was me basically saying Phoenix sucks. So um, you know, people like that. Yeah, yeah. Um having a strong opinion about a place will get you a lot of views.

SPEAKER_04 53:30

Aaron Powell And so the the themes of of dignity, uh I haven't read it, admittedly, uh but heard you speak about on Tyler Cohen's podcast. It's going through a lot of America and just trying to understand the the dignity in everyday lives and maybe lack thereof that they were being given and so forth. Is that a fair assumption?

SPEAKER_00 53:49

Aaron Powell That's that's right. I mean I did I did roughly um it it came it resulted from eight years of uh kind of exploring the US on foot um and talking to people in neighborhoods that you know you're told not to go to. Um and so um there was a lot of a lot of time spent with um uh people in addiction, um uh homeless people.

SPEAKER_04 54:16

That I was leading in to ask you that sympathetic eye and really deeper analysis of the culture because obviously you're an American and you spent so much time there, so you have a better perspective. But have you seen that same ha have you noticed that same feeling in the other places you've gone to and wanted to sort of scratch away at that angle?

SPEAKER_00 54:37

Yeah, we don't, you know, it's kind of a peculiarity, it's an embarrassing peculiarity of the US that we have such a large underclass. Right. Um, you know, given how wealthy we are, like. You know, I'm I'm going into Alice Springs, so um I'm going into the Northern Territory and uh Queensland um in 24 hours, so I'll have a better sense of of your um underclass. Um but I don't see that here. Right. Uh you don't see a lot of it here. You don't see a lot of people sleeping on the streets, you don't see a lot of people sleeping rough, you don't see a lot of addicts, you don't see a lot of homeless. Um you know that's true of that's even true of places that are far poorer than here. Like you don't see a lot of um you don't see a lot of the the underclass, for instance, in Jakarta, while you know by US metrics it's huge, isn't really an underclass. Not in the sense of, you know, the US. And uh so the US is kind of we we're very peculiar in the sense of um having this having so much money and at the same time having this really um really despondent um population. Ver relatively large population too, both in percentages and numbers.

SPEAKER_04 56:00

What is the final well actually rather sorry, what I wanted to ask you was because you you retired from your finance job. That was the last sort of corporate job you've had, right? Mm-hmm. And you had a lot of really good years there. Did you retire with enough money to just buy a house, sit in the yard, and read the news? Yeah. So this is essentially for you just pure passion. I want to see the world.

SPEAKER_00 56:24

Um yeah, I mean I have, you know. I have very, very, very inexpensive taste. So I if I was alone, I could do that. But I also have a family who um have less inexpensive taste than me. Um so yeah, I mean, you know I I al I need to gener I like to generate money just because I you know it's nice it's a it I feel an obligation to to to my children. Um but at the same time, um but but in general, yeah. Like I mean I I don't I I could basically sit on a beach and um you know in in it not Bondy, it's too expensive for me, but like I could sit on a a far-flung beach and kind of just read the news and and I guess I don't know, play video games during the day. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 57:15

And your wife, I'm sorry to ask you, are you still together? Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 57:21

Yeah, I don't wear jewelry. Okay. And therefore, g given the populations I hang out with, I I d I wear no signs of wealth. What about her and all of this?

SPEAKER_04 57:31

Since you're away for such long periods of time, does she want to join you on trips? Do you want to bring her on trips?

SPEAKER_00 57:37

She's a very different traveler than me. Um we learned that very quickly, and my kids um are very different traveler. My kids are all grown. They're um my d my ol my youngest daughter is actually in Japan right now. Um and uh, you know, I I give everybody, all my children the offers of where if they ever want to fly anywhere, I'll go with them. Um but they're just I don't have a lot of tra they're not they're not they don't like to travel the way I do, and uh which I I get, like you know, but also um you know that's just not who you know they want to s they you can't really there's a um there's a book from the 70s called Mosquito Coast. I think they turned it into a movie um by Paul Thoreau. Um and it's about you know kind of this one man's obsession with wanting to live on the uh coast of Costa Rica, Mosquito Coast, um, and how he kind of drags his family through hell to try to live this his own personal dream. You can't really drag your family through hell, you know, if your dream is relatively eccentric. You know, walking through Ulumpatar is really not like Not a fun family day out. No, no.

SPEAKER_04 58:48

Not not for my children at least. It's funny Paul Thoreau made that. You know, he himself probably projected quite a lot onto that story. Yeah. Uh what about the great travel writers? Do you, as you're walking through towns, listen to audiobooks, do these people ever get into your radar?

SPEAKER_00 59:04

No. Uh and why is that? Because um I don't like to be corrupted. I mean, like I you you kind of like to go in cold um in general. Like um, you know, I I I've read Paul Thoreau, he's the one I like the best. Yeah. Um his Darkstar Safari is uh particularly interesting. Um but in general, like I I have no animosity towards him. I have no jealousy or any, you know. I I would love to meet everybody who's ever if there's anybody who I find who does something similar to me, I try to make them a friend. I don't necessarily read what they do because um I think in many ways um writing's really interesting because um, you know, I was kind of a math prodigy. And um math is easy. Um, you know, um like if you give me a a problem to solve in general there's one way to solve it. You know, yes, you can attack it from different ways, but you know, writing is is infinite. Like you you tell me I want to describe Sydney, like it's overwhelming the number of different ways you can go about that, both stylistically, you know, different word choices, um uh different ideas. And so um if you s if you stop and think about it, you can become frozen by how all the possibilities. And I think w part of the problem with reading other people is it just ends up it ends up making me frozen by possibilities, you know. Um whereas um, you know, I I'd rat you know, when I do find people who do something similar to me, I always invite them out to go have a drink or talk to them. But I don't necessarily want to read their stuff. And I don't expect them to read my stuff. Because um, you know, there's just there's a sense of like um you you kind of do what you do and you don't want to uh kind of get confused.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:05

So you're clearly not interested in the public facing fame. That makes a hundred percent sense. Uh but inherently in most humans there is a desire, whether we admit it or not, but to be respected by those that we admire. So therefore, these same people that you might admire, do you know if they're reading your Substack and they're in your DMs? I have no idea.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:26

No, okay, okay. I have no idea. I mean, like, I don't even know who's a travel writer these days. I'm so removed from the field. Uh right.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:32

Oh, it's a pretty it's a I think the writing side of it is dead.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:38

Yeah, so YouTube, a lot of that. Yeah, because that's what it's become. And so, you know, people tell you the hunger exists, but the medium changes.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:44

There's a lot of and you know, people ask why you don't. I I photography is very important to my work. Um I I I feel, you know, I call myself a writer, but I I focus as much on the photography. Um that was especially true of my stuff in the US on dignity. Um so people always ask me why I don't use video, and I just I just it just it would get in the way. Sorry? It would get in the way. Uh the j you know, when I was doing my work with um drug dealers and addicts, was it it very much got in the way. Yeah. Um but it's also it's just you know, it's not natural. Right. Um it's like to jam a camera in someone's face. Um You know, I mean, there's a guy out there who people tell me to read who who does something similar, but he goes on We were in fact in Kampala at the same time. Mad Russian, they call him or something, I forget his name. Um and he vlogs, he he videos everything.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:37

There's a great one called Bold and Bankrupt. That's him. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean he's something else though, like that's sheer charisma that characters.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:45

He can pull it off because he's very friendly. Yeah. Like and he um, you know, he blusters through scenes. Um and like that's just not me. Like I'm not gonna do that. I don't have the I don't have the capacity to just pull that off. Um but we were in Kampala at the same time. Yeah. And um, you know, we we had very we had somewhat similar takes. I think I I don't watch his stuff again because I j it's just not me. Um but like I don't I don't have any problem with what he does. Yeah. I mean like I think it's perfectly fine. It's just a very different style. And um, you know, again, I I can I I do know that that takes a lot of work what he does. Yeah. That's a lot of that's a lot of time. Um that's a lot of like you well, you're I mean he probably has support, meaning he might have two people with him or something, but it's just a lot of work, man. Yeah, totally. It's a lot of and so I respect that.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:37

Um so we pulled this podcast together really last minute. Typically I'd be doing a lot more research. Um, but I wonder what what's something I've really missed that you think would be interesting to uh talk about that no one really asks you.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:56

I think you covered most of it. Um you know people don't generally ask me about my physics background, but that's okay. You know, unless your listeners you think are particularly interested in particle physics.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:09

No we don't do particle physics. But I I suppose the other day on the walk we spoke quite a lot about the more financial side of your life and some of the people you met there. But I don't think that's right for public consumption.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:19

Yeah, I mean, um, you know, the again, I mean, uh the finance does inform how I think about things. Yeah. Uh I have no, you know, I I've been generally pretty cynical about finance, but um uh or at least pretty pretty much a critic of it, but um it's good people in general. Yeah. Um you know, smart people.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:40

Then final two questions for you, and these ones that I ask uh every guest if I can. First being, what is the role that serendipity has played in your life?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:51

You know, I don't believe in it. What? How how can that be? I I don't believe in um uh in coincidence. Um so this is a hard one for me. Um I used to have a long rant about why I don't believe in coincidence, but um um I but you know I um for instance one pr funny example of uh of what it looks like a coincidence um is um is um when I was in Ulam Badar, um I took a bus to kind of Mongolia's second city um and it was about a six hour ride and there was only one other westerner on the bus and um when we got dropped off it was like a mile walk mile half walk into town so we walked in together. She was a younger woman, backpacker, um and we talked and we kinda got along. You know, she had wanted to see the Gare district, which is uh supposedly no go zone that's unsafe for f for single females. So we we scheduled a time to go walk with her and we we started talking during the and and um you know during the course of like six hours of walking all these kind of ver she sounded very familiar to me. Like I I I like I kind of know this woman and um ends up we had gone to the same she was a graduate of the same tiny college that I went to in Florida. So um, you know, that I met in Ulumbatar. Um, you know, she had graduated from my college. When I mean tiny, I mean 400 students. Um very small college. And so it was really interesting that I ran into another graduate from my college in Ulambatar, um, who who graduated 30 years later. But again, that that made sense. You know, we got along really well, and she's a sh I she she's a she's I'm very I'm I I do my best to try to help her in life. Um I feel like she's one of my children now. Um but like that that's something where it makes sense if you go to this weird college you might end up in Mongolia. Um but um so I don't really necessarily believe in coincidence. But is this informed by faith or something? Because that's that's um I mean that's my kind of I just I just think I think that my my old my old spreadsheet brain answer was and coincidences are because you know there are so many variables in life and when you see y you're bound to have overlaps in some of them.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:26

So it's just you're observing it, hence it can't be a coincidence. And uh my favorite question. What is the most b countr what is the country you're most bullish on? Project 10-15 years into the future.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:40

Wow, I think I'm gonna say um contrary to what I just everything I said, maybe Indonesia. Oh, there you go. You know, having talked it through you, talked talked it talked through you about it, Indonesia, um in bullish in terms of um, you know, bigger player in the world I guess, um, but in terms of like underappreciated, um in terms of like you know, where would I live for fifteen years if I had to like go to one place and be there for fifteen years? Um spend the next fifteen years trapped in that country. Um maybe France. The food's better. Uh but it's just you know, it's kind of got the Australian uh sense of balance of life with better food and um and kind of a little bit more to do.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:29

And what's next for you? After Australia, what are what what are the parts on the map that you've yet to touch which you'd like to?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:36

Um I would love to do Russia, but I can't.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:39

Oh totally, that'd be amazing.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:41

Um but um I'm gonna spend all of September at home um just writing and just relaxing and trying to fix f get my back 100%. Um and then um I'm going off to China and uh and Burma next. Taiwan, have you been there? I have. Um great place, um crappy weather.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:05

I'm going there later this year, so I'd like to uh talk to you about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:08

Um yeah, it's um Don't Go in August.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:12

But then uh your book. So you've written a novel. Um it's kind of half autobiographical. What what about larger writing uh projects beyond the substack? What what are you what do you aspire to do?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:25

I would like to be a novelist. I'd like to write more novels. Um they're hard. Right. Um, you know, it's it's it's it's hard to um writing fiction. Writing fic writing fiction is particularly easy, but writing fiction though with a cohesive plot is hard. Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:45

Well, Ms. Arnado, thank you so much, sir. Thank you for having.