Gareth Gore | Political Fallout & 'Smear Campaign' From Opus Dei

Gareth Gore | Unveiling The Conspiracy Of Opus Dei (his first appearance)

Gareth Gore - Opus (Amazon)

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This is Gareth’s second appearance on the podcast. 

It is the political fallout from everything covered in our first episode where he told the story for how he serendipitously uncovered Opus Dei’s hidden power and financial manipulation while investigating the ruins of the Spanish bank, Banco Popular. 

It began as a routine story but evolved into the discovery of a global network of manipulation, coercive recruitment, psychological abuse, and enormous financial flows routed through myriad opaque foundations. Gareth spoke about how Opus Dei maintains a polished, benign public image, but secretly operates an inner core of numeraries—members bound by vows of obedience, chastity, and poverty—who are tightly controlled, isolated, and monitored.

It’s systematic practices include corporal mortification, constant surveillance, abuse, both emotional and physical and the exploitation of vulnerable young women tantamount to human trafficking. Opus Dei used Banco Popular as a piggy bank for decades, funnelling money through shell foundations and offshore channels to fund their impressive global expansion.

This is a Direct quote from Gareth’s first appearance… “This is an organisation that seeks to re-Christianize of the entire world… Opus Dei is informed by a warped, distorted, conservative, radical reading of the Bible. It embeds itself in key institutions, especially in the United States. and Despite its Vatican legitimacy, Opus Dei uses secrecy and corporate structures to evade accountability. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

This is Gareth's second appearance on the podcast. It is the political fallout from everything covered in our first episode, where he told the story for how he serendipitously uncovered Opus Day's hidden power and financial manipulation while investigating the ruins of the Spanish bank, Banco Popular. It began as a routine story but evolved into the discovery of a global network of manipulation, coercive recruitment, psychological abuse, and enormous financial flows routed through myriad opaque foundations. Gareth spoke about how Opus Day maintains a polished, benign public image, but secretly operates an inner core of numeraries, members bound by vows of obedience, chastity, and poverty, who are tightly controlled, isolated, and always monitored. Its systematic practices include corporal mortification, made famous in Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code, constant surveillance, abuse, both emotional and physical, and the exploitation of vulnerable young women tantamount to human trafficking. In fact, Gareth directly makes the claim that Opus Day does conduct human trafficking. This is a direct quote from Gareth's first appearance on the show. This is an organization that seeks to re-Christianize the entire world. What they do is embed themselves inside key institutions, especially in the United States. And despite their Vatican legitimacy, Opus Day uses secrecy and corporate structures to evade accountability. So this podcast is the political fallout, the smear campaign against Gareth and all the rest that came from his incredible book, Opus. And it's been a while since I have encouraged my dear listeners to do this. But if you um have the time, I would really appreciate it if you could leave a review, whether that's on Apple or Spotify. Nothing does more to further propel this podcast into the ears of others and therefore grow the show and therefore make my show more legitimate when I put it in front of the next guest that I want to interview. So I would ask you all to do that. And with absolutely no further ado, here is Gareth Gore.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Well, first of all, Ryan, thank you for having me back. It's a pleasure to be back on the show. Um I'm surprised you still want to talk to me after our mammoth session last time. But but it's I mean, this topic is so immense that there's always more to talk about. Okay. Um political links and Project 2025. I mean, look, I mean, I think we should start this by saying that um this is not some kind of crazy conspiracy theory. I'm I'm not implying that the head of Opus Day is sat in Rome issuing orders to um Donald Trump or to whoever telling them kind of what legislation to push through. That that isn't the way that Opus Day works. I think the best way to think about Opus Day is as a network. Wherever they set up in the world, and generally they try to they set up in in these kind of nucleuses of of nuclei of power around the world. So that they'll set up in London, in Washington, DC, in Sydney, um, you know, in in cities where decisions are made. And once they set up, they will generally target people who who are in positions of power. Now, this has been the way they've operated right since the beginning. You know, in the early 1930s, when José Maria Esciva, the founder, was setting up the organization and writing down the blueprint, the rules for how it would operate as it expanded around the world. He was very metic, you know, he was very detailed about how people should go after potential recruits, who they should recruit. He made it quite clear that they should be targeting people atop the mountain. Because his used his analogy that, you know, from the top of the mountain, the snow melts and flows down into society. So if you if you want to influence society, you have to target people at the top. And that's what they've always done. You know, right through in the Franco years, they very much targeted the the kind of intellectual elite, they very they very successfully inserted themselves into government and into business, journalism. And that's, you know, and if we look at look at somewhere like Washington, DC, um, I mean, one one one small stack for you. In the US, Opus Day has about 3,000 members. Um, you would expect those members to be concentrated in kind of predominantly Catholic cities like New York, Boston, Chicago, Miami these days, because of the large Latino population. But no, the largest contingent of Opus Day members is in Washington, D.C. 800 of 3,000 members, so roughly a quarter of its members are in the DC area. And that tells you all you need to know about where it's focused its recruitment efforts, and that's because it wants to infiltrate the political, legal, lobbying elite. And so, like a few names for you, Kevin Roberts. I mean, this kind of is direct link to Project 2025. Kevin Roberts, the president of the Heritage Foundation, a man who in recent weeks has been, you know, we're we're recording this in in November 2020. In recent weeks, he's been at the center of this scandal because he's been defending the platforming of this ultra-right-wing figure, Nick Fuentes. And um, he is a regular at the Opus Day Center in central Washington, DC. He gets his spiritual formation from an Opus Day priest. He um he's very much part of this Opus Day network. He's given speeches where he talks about how he looks up to Escrivar. You know, this is the guy who Heritage Foundation is Project 2025. They're the ones that created this blueprint for a second Trump administration, uh, you know, of how that administration could really kind of tear up the way that the American system of government works and kind of rewire that in order to kind of push forward their um their agenda. So we know that the president of the Heritage Foundation, the guy who's basically the brains behind Project 20, very close to Opus Day, he goes to this, the Opus Day Center once a week, gets direction from them, talks about how he looks up to Escrivar. You know, Project 2025 is made up of literally hundreds of different people. Not all of them are linked to Opus Day, but there's a bunch of people who are linked to Opus Day. So I think the connections are there, and many of the people involved are part of this Opus Day network. Some of them are members, some of them are just affiliates, some of them are, I guess, admirers of Opus Day. But, you know, like but it's we should be clear as well that, you know, Opus Day isn't issuing orders to Kevin Roberts to do this. They're more of a kind of influence, they're trying to influence people like him and trying to infiltrate those kinds of worlds. But also there are other people, you know, the the one thing we know about the Trump administration is that it's this kind of hodge-podge mix of lots of different interests, you know, from Silicon Valley to Christian nationalists to kind of, you know, like um it's just a- Whatever furthers his interests. Exactly, exactly. And also it's it's the same for many of these groups as well. I mean, I think a lot of these groups, including um, you know, a lot of the Christian nationalists and including a lot of the Opus Dei types, I think a lot of them look at Trump and are disgusted at, you know, what he stands for and especially his kind of moral compass, some of the things he's done in the past, but they see him as a as a means to an end. I think, you know, it's probably quite similar during the Franco years. I think a lot of in Spain, a lot of devout Catholics looked at Franco and you know were very uncomfortable with many of the atrocities he'd committed, you know, the fact that hundreds of thousands of people have been locked up in these kind of concentration camps, tens of thousands of people had been of his political opponents had been murdered. You know, this was a he was a ruthless, bloodthirsty dictator, even you know, during peacetime, after this is after the war, but I think a lot of kind of devout Catholics turned a blind eye because he was because he was a vessel of power. He was a vessel of power, and he was better than the communists. He was better than the at least in their eyes. And so I and I think we've had we have a similar thing going on right now. So you have a lot of these ultra-devout Catholics who are very close to Trump and very close to Project 2025, and you know, getting into bed with him is kind of a necessary evil to further their agenda.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

So it's not just the ideological overlap, um, but there is a delict, a direct link to political influence with Roberts. What is Roberts' significance in all of it? Has Opus Day directly impacted policy in the last two years?

SPEAKER_01 9:08

I mean, I think the answer to that is is no. Opus Day hasn't directly impacted policy. What it's the whole point of Opus Day is that it does everything indirectly. What it what it's doing when it kind of infiltrates a political network, what it's doing is kind of, first of all, trying to pull people into its orbit. And it does that by it doesn't show all of its cards, you know, immediately. It does that by saying, oh, what we're a Catholic organization, we want to help people like you to get deeper into their faith. Let us let us help you out. Come to confession, come to our meetings. And then once they kind of reel you in, it then begins to offer they begin to offer you these additional kind of sessions where they, I guess they call spiritual guidance. They're trying to help you to, I guess, live out your faith in your daily job. And you know, if these guys are politicians or lawyers, then that means influencing the way that they think about how Catholicism fits with, you know, legislation that they might be helping to kind of push through Congress or or a court case that they're they're hearing at the moment. So yes, it's all of this work is it it's all indirect. And so I think um so I think, yeah, so I think we can't say that they have any kind of direct influence, but it's about creating these pockets, these networks in in DC and in other cities, where they're able to maybe, I guess, suggest things, shape the agenda, and also critically connect people. So it's about having being able to draw on this reliable network of individuals who are like-minded, are kind of, you know, who are thinking about things in the same way, who are well connected, who have money behind them, and so that they can kind of you know push forward their kind of reactionary agenda. And, you know, and that's that that is also kind of what Project 2025 is about. I mean, Trump, you know, it's it's a playbook. Trump has um used some of the suggestions from Project 2025, he's pushed them through, others he hasn't. And so, but what Project 2025 is about is about having this kind of ready-set list of ideas and also a bunch of people who can kind of implement those ideas and the kind of money around them through Leonard Leo, who's who's another Opus Day affiliated person, who can kind of, you know, so so it's about kind of creating the conditions for these things to be able to happen. And and you know, this is happening all around the world, it's not just you know the US, but in in any country where the you know Opus Day is operating. I mean, I I since putting the book out, I've had so many former and current members kind of reach out to me to kind of thank me for writing the book and also to confirm you know what I already knew. And you know, I I remember had one guy from Mexico who told me about how he'd been charged with basically infiltrating the families of the kind of ruling elite, including the Mexican president and a number of cabinet members. His job was to go in and kind of basically offer up the kind of spiritual guidance, yeah, like to basically kind of lure them in kind of slowly and say, hey, we want to help you to be better Catholics. And then, you know, it's about bringing these people into the network, and then once they're in, that's when, you know, the priests and the the numeries who are in charge of spiritual guidance can really kind of get their teeth in and start to, I guess, influence the way that some of these people think about policy and about and just about the role that they should play in in society.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

What about some of the other serendipitous encounters you would have had since the book was published? Who else has reached out to you? What other sort of new sources or information has uh been brought to light?

SPEAKER_01 12:52

I mean, it's it's been a wild ride since the book came out. I think um I mean in the months before the book came out, I mean it it was it was also quite interesting because Uperste was obviously very worried and you know they hired some very aggressive lawyers in the US to come after me and to come after my publisher. The message was basically if you publish this book, you guys we're gonna bankrupt you, you know, we're gonna take you to court, we're gonna um we're gonna absolutely rinse you. Do you really want to publish this book? You know, it's the whole kind of law for strategy of of trying to intimidate. Yeah. So they tried that for a few months. You know, I was very lucky that my my my publisher, Sam Manchester, was having none of it. They completely stood by me. They they knew that a huge amount of work had gone into the book. They knew that the allegations that I was making in the book were absolutely bang on. So, you know, they tried that for a few months, it didn't work. And then, you know, literally, I think it was the like four days before the book came out. Um so we'd been quite punchy. I mean, I we'd um we'd been debating whether or not we actually call a spade a spade. So we we kind of assembled all this all this evidence, especially with all of, you know, especially these young girls that were recruited as kind of servants in in places like Argentina, but not just Argentina, all around the world. Um, these girls who, you know, and we're talking girls who were like 12, 13 years old, coerced into joining Opus Day and then basically enslaved, forced to work for no money, kind of basically shipped around the world to wherever Opus Day needed them. And one day, you know, like one day I basically had this kind of epiphany of like, shit, this is this is human trafficking, isn't it? And so, you know, I kind of looked up various definitions of what human trafficking was. My editor was very supportive of me, you know, calling this out. We discussed it with the Simon Achusta lawyers, and you know, they were like, Yeah, I think absolutely you have a case here. And we made a call, you know, which felt I mean, felt a little bit pausy because we were the first ones to really kind of put our necks on the line and to call this for what it was. But then and and part of all of these kind of legal letters that we were receiving over over the you know, in the months before the book came out were like, How dare you accuse us of this heinous crime? Um, you know, what you know we've never been accused of this ever. Was your evidence for this? But you know, we stuck to it, and then literally four days before the book came out, I I was I remember that day I received the latest kind of missive from the Opus Day lawyers, and it was like 20, 30 pages of like, you know, this is why you can't put the book out. This is what, you know, whatever. I remember I got this at like 5 pm on a Friday, and I I was due that evening to go out for dinner with my with my family to celebrate. Like next week, the book's gonna come out. I've been working on this for years. Isn't this let's go have a like family celebration? So I got this letter and I was like, you know what? I'm gonna park this until Monday until the week, like the weekend. Tonight's about going out to like celebrate the book. So we went out and um I got my kids quite young, so we went out for like an early dinner, and we were back home by like eight, and I switched on my phone, and suddenly all these messages were coming through because what had just happened was that in Argentina, federal prosecutors had formally formally accused Opus Day of human trafficking. This thing that we'd been so they'd they had independently they'd independently conducted their own investigation and and arrived at the same conclusions, and you know, they're also lawyers, not unlike me. And they have the powers of the state to to interview and investigate people, and you know that that was quite special. So after all of this pressure, all of this attempt to intimidate us, you know, we'd stood our ground, and then you know, we'd been vindicated by you know press prosecutors who who'd been looking into the same thing. And so, you know, that's kind of been one of the wild things since the book's come out. So this this is um this is kind of slowly kind of gathering speed. This case, there's going to be a trial in Argentina. Already four Opus Day priests, very senior priests, um, have been um called to defend their names. The deputy head of Opus Day has been brought into this, and there are currently efforts to to kind of name the head of Opus Day in the case as well. So we we may well have a trial, there may well be a trial where the head of Opus Day has to stand trial in in Argentina, which is incredible. But all through this, I mean Opus Day is doing its damn best to like not address any of these issues. So when you think that, instead of kind of you know, like addressing the very serious allegations of human trafficking or you know, like um uh uh abusing its members and the rest of it, instead they've tried to kind of create this almost alternative narrative. So it's you know been pushing all this stuff, they've been creating these videos and pushing these stories where they're kind of basically trying trying to paint me as this kind of journalist with an agenda. They've implied that I've been paid by some kind of like George Soros type figure who wants to bring them down. It's always George. Yeah, it's always it's always George. He's he's a busy guy and he's like what in his 90s or something? Like he's uh I'm not even that I'm like you know, somehow linked to the Ku Klux Klan or something. And like it's kind of crazy. Oh my god. But it but it's also very telling. I mean, this I think what they don't realize is that by not engaging with these very serious allegations, any other organization in the world, if they were accused of these things, they would be like, shit, we need we're gonna launch a full investigation, we're gonna cooperate with the authorities. If we find any wrongdoing whatsoever, we will come down hard on these people, they'll be thrown out. Is that what Opus Day has done? No, they've just kind of created these these completely fictitious narratives to try to distract people from from the core arguments of the book. And that's quite telling. This isn't an organization that, you know, this is supposed to be a Christian organization. Um they're meant to be, you know, it's meant to be all about Christian values, but instead of of actually trying to get to the truth, they're just trying to distract people. They have no interest in actually getting to the truth. They they want to hide what's really been going on. And I think that's so it's been it's been a wild year, you know. I've had all kinds of crazy admires online and and you know, like it's um but I guess it's it's also a window into the culture wars, right? I mean, people just because they they pick a side and they dig their heels in, you know, and they almost don't want to listen to the evidence and the the reality and the truth. They just want to defend the side that they've picked. It's kind of crazy. It's kind of sad, actually.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

You spoke about in our first interview about the Da Vinci Code and the efforts that Opus Day went through in their PR machine to either fight back against its message or even try to shut it down. And when we spoke, you were anticipating all of these efforts that going that were going to be made against you. And you've documented a few of them here. But I wonder if there are any particular stories or examples that have stood out in the last year since the book has been published that might be indicative of this PR machine, apart from them just denying all outright everything you say, trying to paint you as a George Soros guy or Ku Klux Klan guy, but rather anything more malicious than that as well.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

I mean, one of the most interesting ones was in Spain. I mean, obviously, Spain is the biggest country, remains the biggest country for Oprah's Day. And so, you know, the book was always gonna cause a splash there, and you know, it's um there was a lot of interest from the media. Well, I say there was a lot of interest from the media. There was a lot of interest from kind of half the media, and the other half, you know, my the publicist um at the Spanish publishing company that was charged with with basically trying to get word out about the book, um, she put out, you know, a lot of press releases and offered interviews with me to to anyone that wanted to talk to me. And, you know, basically the I guess the left-leaning press were all very interested in the story and gave us some great coverage. The more kind of right-wing press basically just didn't want to talk to me, didn't want to engage with the book, wasn't interested in in reading any of the advanced copies that were offered or whatever. And I kind of thought, well, fine. But then what was most interesting was that when the book came out, those kind of those same newspapers and TV channels and radio programs became vehicles for pushing this Opus Day narrative. So they they didn't engage with me in any way, they didn't want to explain what we were saying, but they were very happy to trot out the Opus Day. Kind of angle inside of it, and you know, those those things that we've just discussed about, you know, me being like an anti-religious bigot and the rest of it. You know, they were happy to push those lines, but didn't really want to engage with those. And it kind of gave me a window into how, you know, I'm a journalist, I should know this, but it's gave me more, maybe I maybe the UK media media is slightly less kind of divided like this, but like it gave me a window into how the Spanish media operates and how influential OpenStay still is in, you know, in that world. You know, we had big newspapers, um, like, you know, newspapers like El Mundo and ABC, which are like two of the biggest selling newspapers in Spain, putting out these kind of mere stories about me and the book without really engaging with me or giving me a chance to kind of do what they were saying. You know, it's basically kind of continuing this, this, this Opus Day narrative. Another thing that happened in Spain as well was that they Opus Day tasked a numerie with setting up this an entire website, and they put out they put up all these videos. You can check, they're on YouTube as well. There's an entire website. Whether it's by, you know, these expensive videos. Clearly, a lot of money and effort went into these videos, but basically put together a bunch of videos talking about how I'm a completely untrustworthy individual, you know, and you can't unbelievable.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

It's kind of so you've just been slandered completely, essentially.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

Yeah, but you know what? I think it's a window into how they operate. People aren't stupid. Yeah. And so I think um, it sort of says everything. I don't necessarily think it's such a bad thing because like this is what they're like. You know, it's kind of confirms what what I write about in the book and the way that they do this indirectly, it confirms just how well they have infiltrated these the worlds, you know, the political worlds, the world of media.

SPEAKER_00 23:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

And you know, like, you know, like you guys are just confirming to the world what I've just written in the book. So go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

That's so true. That's so true. There couldn't be a more obvious signal for that, and therefore confirmation of everything that you're saying in the first place.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

There was a similar thing in the US, actually, which was rather extraordinary, which was um so I I've had a bunch of reviews, almost all of which have been extremely positive. The Washington Post put out a glowing review of my book, um, which I was very pleased with. But then a few weeks later, the executive editor of the Washington Post, now, you know, that's a very important job in Washington, he decided to write his own review of the book. So that the paper had already got this really positive, this glowing review of the book. And um he then took to writing a review in a in a Catholic newspaper. Well, his main criticism of my book was the fact that I hadn't I hadn't said enough positive stuff about Opus Day. And you're like, whoa, so that's your was this there's this there's this book, which is an expose of um of systematic abuse, of human trafficking, of you know, really seriously. Money laundering, money laundering, really serious crimes. And your one takeaway is that I haven't said enough public about Opus Day. I'm sorry, if I'm writing an expose, it's not my job to like say, well, maybe they do a bit of positive stuff as well. But it also like confirms like this guy would not be writing this if he wasn't already, I guess, part of this Opus Day network and familiar with what Opus Day does.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

So, you know, but also a true believer.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

And and and it so it confirms two things.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

You're fighting against belief in some sense, and that's it's an insurmountable hill in many ways.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

Yeah, and it's it comes back to what we were saying before about the culture wars. I mean, these people have picked their side, they think that Opus Day is a positive force, and they just they just want to stick their fingers in their ears. They don't want to hear about these heinous crimes that the organization has been involved in. But it also confirms like you know, like the guy that's basically in charge of the Washington Post is a fan of Opa's Day. It's unbelievable.

SPEAKER_00 26:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

It confirms what I was writing in the book. And also, you know, like he could have just remained quiet, but you know, like why why stick your head above the parapet by rocking it? I mean, the guy that wrote the original um the original review of my book for the Washington Post, he was kind of posting on Blue Sky of like, he's like, what the hell's going on? They commissioned me to write a review. I did that in good faith. I thought the book was great. And then the boss of the paper is going out there, undermining the newspaper's own reviewer by putting out his own separate review. It's kind of crazy. And and I mean they also placed, you know, we had Newsweek, for example, and I know that you know, one of the SME members of staff at Newsweek is also a member of Opus Day. You know, the head of Opus Day and the US put out some kind of op-ed in Newsweek and things. You know, it just, you know, when you see the PR machine cranking into action, you begin to get a glimpse as to just how wide the Opus Day network is and just how successfully they've infiltrated many of the kind of big media um platforms. And, you know, yeah, I guess we can only imagine the breadth that they have in the in the political world as well.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

They really punch about their weight, it sounds like. And especially to your point, if 800 of the numinaries uh of the 3,000 in America are in DC, if all of the Catholic conservative press, being half of which in Spain, aren't going to address your book, it is a more subtle confirmation of the exact influence campaigns that opus try to play out for themselves that you write about. Therefore, it actually just supports your book.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

Absolutely, absolutely. And I mean the other interesting thing that's been happening like through the last over the last year has been the uh what's been happening at the Vatican. Obviously, you know, we had the death of Pope Francis at the end of April, a new Pope, a new American Pope. And there's been I mean, it's it's very interesting because literally, you know, a couple of days before so the the reform uh Francis has been trying to reform Opus Day for a number of years. Um he basically put the group on notice um um back in 2022, told them to get their house in order, ordered them to rewrite their statutes. That's been going on for years. They've been dragging their feet. I mean, as I wrote about in the book, you know, I think it was part of a strategy to wait for Francis to die. I mean, they they thought if they dragged their feet long enough, you know, he was getting on, his health wasn't the best. I think there was very much strategy to, hey, let's just try and get through this bit. Maybe the next Pope is going to be a bit more friendly. If we just kind of drag this out, you know, we might be able to avoid any any real reform. Now, I mean, Francis, to his credit, could kind of kept the pressure on them even whilst he was, you know, not very well. And so, you know, literally in the middle of middle of April, we had this announcement where Opus Day was about, you know, the Vatican had finally kind of signed off on what was the final text of the Opus Day reforms, and they had sent it back to Opus Day for them to approve internally. Opus Day was due to hold an internal vote to approve this kind of what the Vatican had told them they had to do, and and then Francis died. Now, within hours of Francis dying, they cancelled the internal vote. So they're clearly they're thinking that was close. Well, let's try to let's try to, you know, let's let's delay this again. We don't want to sign off on this text because maybe the next guy will be more amenable. When Pope Leo was was elected, there was one of the very first things he did was call Opus Day in to see him. So I guess the um and and and Opus Dead tried to spin that saying, ah, it shows how close we are to the Pope that he wanted to see us as one of his first audiences. But uh, you know, I think it's become clear since that what he was doing was saying, what the hell are you guys playing at? Why is the why good on it? Why have these reforms taking so long? You need to sort this out. I mean, there was all kinds of leaks as well at the time. There was one leak that he'd given them six months to, you know, get these reforms sorted out, or else he was gonna close them down. And in more recent weeks, we've started to get there are signs from the Vatican that some really serious reform is coming, it's on the horizon. There is one report that the Pope is actually about to disband Oprah's Day, he's gonna split them into three parts, which would be huge if if if true. Devastating. I mean, we like I said before, we're we're recording this in November 2025. We think some kind of announcement is imminent, it could be, you know, any day now we're waiting. So that's I mean, that sounds that's positive. At the same time, behind the scenes, I've been working with a group of Opus Day victims to try to give an audience with the Pope. We believe that the, you know, it's quite concerning that throughout this whole period of reforming Opus Day, which has been going on for like three, four years now, at no point has the church, has the Vatican reached out to myself, to other journalists that have covered Opus Day, or to any of the victims or any former members. And we have a really we're really you know seriously concerned that the that the Vatican doesn't fully understand how this group operates. There's the official statutes, the official constitution of Opus Day, which was signed off by the Vatican, but there are all of these hidden, these kind of secret, these secret rule books that we have access to, but the Vatican doesn't. And so, you know, we we believe we have information that the Vatican needs in order to make for like you know, a real real reform. But they don't want to hear us. So I think on the one hand, there are positive steps, it looks like the Pope's about to do something, but at the same time, the Pope is ignoring calls, you know, from people like us. We have information, we can help them to make better reforms, but it's all almost like that the church doesn't want to dig too deeply into this because it's perhaps worried about what it might find. I mean, you know, I I I know I I'm I'm absolutely scratch far. No, they they you know what I think what happened in the US in the early 2000s has really scarred the church. You know, what began as a very kind of localized scandal in Boston then became national and international. And the repercussions for the church in terms of the number of people going to mass, in terms of financial compensation, and then bankruptcies of of various kind of dioceses around the world, I think that's very much in their mind whenever an whenever a new big international scandal kind of pops up. So I think I think the the church is trying to kind of have its cake and eat it. They're trying to be seen to be reforming Opus Day, doing something about this problem, but they don't really want to kind of get into the weeds for fear of what they might find and the repercussions financial and otherwise that might result.

SPEAKER_00 33:45

Yeah, with the Vatican to legitimize your work by speaking with you and taking into account your information for a potential reform, it would further confirm the reputation they have, which is that it's all about money and power and not necessarily about belief in this entire morality system that it's supposed to be about.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

No, absolutely. This is this is about power and about money. It's about, you know, the church is meant to be an institution that kind of pushes these kind of Christian values of love and charity, repentance, you know, repenting for your sins and making amends. But I mean, what we're saying is is basically, you know, I think it's quite clear that Pope Leo, you know, I think he probably has a good heart. He, you know, he wants to do the right thing, but part of his job is protecting the institution that he now he's now the head of. And so I think whilst on the one hand he does want to do something about Opa's Day, he doesn't want to kick up too much of a stink because that then has very serious potential potentially has very serious repercussions for the institution that he is in charge of. Totally. They don't want to lose, you know, millions of followers, they don't want to end up in a much deeper financial financial problem. So I guess he's trying to balance the two things. But, you know, unfortunately, in my eyes, it just sends out the wrong message. It sends out the message that the church is more interested in power and money than it is in actually, you know, pushing these these Christian values.

SPEAKER_00 35:28

Yeah. I mean the cynicism's already dialed up to higher than it's ever been. I can see from the Vatican's perspective why you would just want to ignore the opistae problem and hope it sort of goes away rather than address it front-on. Do you suspect that Pope Leo, he's an American, right?

SPEAKER_01 35:47

Yes. Do you suspect he's read your book? I know he has discussed my book with people. I got a message a few weeks back with someone that had an from someone that had an audience with the Pope where he said, Um, I've been talking about your book with the Pope. I I recommended I recommended that he read it, which it's kind of a slightly surreal uh whatever. As so surreal to be getting. I I do not know if the Pope has read the book, but he is certainly aware of it, let's say. Um, I hope he reads the book. I think he may well learn important information if he does. I stand ready to meet with him or any of the people that he wants me to meet with to share information that I have. But it's been months since we sent that offer to the Pope, and we're still waiting to hear back. If you as an institution realize that you have a problem and you want to do something about it, you want to reform, what you want, what you need is information and all the information you can get your hands on. If you have a group of people, former members, victims, journalists who know this institution inside out and who've offered those services to you, to, you know, to give you documents that they have to explain, you know, the reality of how this institution works. You know, if you have these people coming to you, then you you welcome them with them with open arms. You say, please give it. I mean, they're free to take the information we have and then say, ah, this isn't right, or ignore it, or whatever. But to completely ignore us and not even want to listen to what we have to say or read the information that we have to provide is extraordinary and actually quite telling, I think.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

I've uh brought your story up a number of times in the context of serendipity. Here's this guy, Gareth Gore, who's a financial journalist, and he's he's been sent to cover the collapse of this financial institution, Banco Popular, and from the rubble is the journalist who breaks the story with all the right sources on Opus Day. This, whether you call it a cult or not, but giant we should call it a cult, yeah. Okay, this this this pernicious cult fictionalized by Dan Brown that was on people's lips, but they didn't quite know what it was. And here you are now, your book's being discussed with the Pope. Uh, there was a HBO series made on top of your book. It is all so wonderful. And I whether I wonder rather whether you've had the time to let that really sink in in the years since, just how much that serendipitous moment has shaped the future of everything you do in your career.

SPEAKER_01 38:22

Yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right. Um I was, you know, I think a huge amount of work has gone into the book. I mean, like, you know, five, six years of my life reporting, you know, like spending literally days, weeks in the archives, you know, hundreds and hundreds of phone calls and Zoom meetings, and thousands of hours of research and writing and stuff. But you're absolutely right. I mean, serendipity plays a huge role here. I would never have set out on that journey if it weren't for the fact that this bank just suddenly collapsed and I, you know, I was sent to report on it. I think um so yeah, I mean, I count myself very lucky to have um to have have just accidentally fallen into this rabbit hole. Um and um but uh you know, like I think as a journalist, that is often the way these things happen. I think, you know, we all have kind of beats that we cover, and so we're covering stuff that happens in that world. And most of the time you write a story, you move on, but occasionally you'll you'll come across something or you'll meet someone, often completely unexpectedly. You know, some of the best, you know, I I interview people day in, day out, and you know, often you'll talk about you know a particular story you're working on, and you you'll move on. But sometimes at the end of that conversation or in the middle of the conversation, they'll just drop in some kind of nugget, and that leads to an incredible story or whatever. I mean, you know, serendicity is kind of part of being a journalist, and you hope, you know, you you dream of these moments. And yeah, I mean, but that's what life is as well, I guess. No, I mean, there are so many Absolutely so many points in life where if you'd done something slightly different, it would have led to a completely different outcome. Who I am, who we are today, is you know, basically the culmination of millions of different choices, and you know, many of which were accidental choices, or we didn't really put much thought into, but you know, it's just yeah, that's that's that's life, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

And Australia? There was the infamous fire scene from the book, but has there been any out uh political ramification in Australia because of Opus and your book?

SPEAKER_01 40:45

Um I um I don't believe so. I mean, there are a number of there are a bunch of um of Australian politicians, um uh Perite and and and the I think uh a former Prime Minister was was also affiliated to was Abbott maybe affiliated to Opus Day? I know I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

Wouldn't surprise me. He's definitely that archetype.

SPEAKER_01 41:06

Yes, so I so I think um I mean, okay, I should I should say I I I don't know if it's I don't know. Okay, no problem. I think he's he's been linked. Um but yeah, I again I think in within a certain kind of within certain groups in in the kind of Sydney Canberra kind of uh political worlds I think um Opus Day is is has a has a size of the presence. You know, they have these these two schools um just outside of Sydney. Um Redfield is the school for boys and Tengara is the school for girls. And there have been I mean they amazingly still attract the kids of the kind of Australian political and business elite. But there have been all these channels linked to the you know, linked to the schools. I mean, the the ABC put out this excellent um documentary called Purity a few years back, where a bunch of bunch of girls were talking about like horrendous stuff that was going on at the schools, where you know, I think in science class or something, that the teacher passed around a piece of sticky tape, and and by the by the end of the after it had made its way all around the room and it was kind of covered in fluff and bits or whatever, you know, the science teacher then held up this tape and said, um, this is what will happen to your bodies if you decide to sleep around. You need to keep yourself. And all these girls as well were, you know, the girls were basically um discouraged from taking the HPV vaccine, which we all know prevents cancer. Um they were told they didn't need to take the vaccine because they would only ever have one partner, one sexual partner in their lives, the husband, um completely ignoring the fact that they could contract this virus from the from that one sexual partner. So they were, you know, even if you only ever had one sexual partner in your life, you were still at risk of contracting this cancer-causing virus. This was the kind of logic of the girls not taking it. And also at the boys' school, I mean, extraordinary reports as well. I think it was in the Sydney Morning Herald or whatever. They I think they one of the boys alleged that he'd been invited to these special clubs after school, these special homework clubs. And this homework club was at the local Opus Day residence. And whilst he was there, he found a list of boys' names, and these were boys who were like 12, 13 years old. And the numeries at the residence had basically made a note next to each of the boys' names about the potential benefits that each of the boys might offer to Opus Day and the potential disadvantages. You know, basically, you know, they were compiling notes on these young boys, how to recruit them, what they might offer to Oprah's Day. It's really kind of dark stuff. Yet at the same time, these schools continue to attract the kids of the wealthy and the powerful.

SPEAKER_00 43:49

It's unbelievable, mate. I cannot square how there's so much religious conservatism in Australia because you don't really see it. But it that that that honestly might be the case everywhere around the world. It's so siloed off into communities that you don't necessarily see it unless you are a part of it. Then once you're a part of it, maybe you can't make sense for why the rest of the country is thinking X, Y, Z over their issues. The culture wars again.

SPEAKER_01 44:14

And, you know, I think we're seeing a lot of political people using religion as a political vehicle as well for whatever ideologies they might be pushing. I mean, we're seeing this in the US, in the UK as well. You know, people are embracing things like Christianity and Catholicism as a way of creating an identity which is anti-migrant and anti-diology. It's like, you know, we you know, we good Catholics, let's, you know, that they're almost kind of hitching their wagons to the church.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Judeo-Christian ethic that informed my culture and my society, and these are my justifications for why I don't want people to be coming into my country anymore.

SPEAKER_01 44:55

You know, the Pope himself has called out this kind of way of thinking, you know, like, no, no, you as good Christians, you should be embracing migrants. You should be looking after your neighbor, not turning your backs on these people.

SPEAKER_00 45:08

Yeah, well, you listen to Tucker Carlson, it's the exact opposite.

SPEAKER_01 45:12

Well, I obviously.

SPEAKER_00 45:12

He's using that exact line of reasoning as a reason why Americans is for America.

SPEAKER_01 45:19

I've criticized Pope Leo for maybe not wanting to dig into the Opus Day scandal enough and for ignoring calls from um our group to be heard. But to his credit, on these other issues, he is calling out this hypocrisy of supposed Christians. And so that's you know, good on him for doing that. Um but I think you know it's it's all about creating a it's using, and Opus Day has done this all all along. It's using religion and Christianity and Catholicism to create an identity that then justifies things and also sets you apart from either migrants or Muslims or atheists or you know, the kind of progressive liberal elite or whatever, it's you know, we are different from them and we're guided by these higher values or whatever. It's um yeah, it's dark stuff.

SPEAKER_00 46:11

Gareth, anything that you experience in your day-to-day or feel like is necessary to speak about with the context being it's the political ramifications from your book that we didn't touch on today.

SPEAKER_01 46:23

No, I think we've we've done a pretty good good job of covering um the fallout. Um yeah, I mean I I just right now I just wake up every day wondering if today's the day that the Pope will make his big announcement. I think it's imminent. Um, although that said, you know, this is a 2,000-year-old institution. It doesn't work properly. And so when I say we could be talking six months here or something or more, but but it is one action is coming, and I look forward to because I I think I think that's gonna be an important moment for for the book as well, because I think a lot of people, I think parts of the mainstream press have been slightly hesitant, I think, about digging into this too much or or or giving too much coverage to the book, because because of the kind of campaign that Opus Day has mounted against it, because of all of this kind of the smear campaign against me, but also because this is tricky ground. And I think a lot of media don't want to be seen as kind of anti-religious, even when you've got all of this abuse in kind of plain sight. And so I think if the Vatican comes down hard on Opus Day, it will be a vindication of what I and many others have been saying. And so I'm hopeful that the mainstream media might this might be an opportunity for the mainstream media to finally kind of get its teeth into some of these allegations and speak about them more widely. So yeah, my hope is that when it comes, it will be a a great opportunity to really shed a a much brighter light on these issues. I mean, the work that you you're doing, giving me a platform to talk about this, and the you know, there are many others like you, but you know, I'm still waiting for the call from the New York Times or from the BBC or whatever. A lot of those The BBC haven't picked it up.

SPEAKER_00 48:15

Yes. So um, yes, I unbelievable. It's it's it's perplexing to me because it's such a rich, pure story. Uh, how do you make sense of that?

SPEAKER_01 48:25

It is interesting. I I mean I I think we we shouldn't necessarily read any kind of malice or conspiracy in into this. I think journalists are busy. This is a complex story. Like you kind of you basically need to read the book to, and that's not me just plugging, but I think to really kind of understand the organization, it's hard to get that across in the press release or whatever. You kind of need to read the book to really kind of fully understand. And that was clear in you know, the last podcast I did with you, which we talked for like I think almost two hours, but it was clear, you know, you you'd read the book and you had some really great questions. I think journalists are under a lot of journalists are under acute pressure to kind of churn out stories as quickly as possible. So they just don't have the time the time to get their teeth into something like this. And so it's kind of easy to be like, we're gonna pass on that because that's gonna require a bit too much work to really kind of understand. There are far easier stories to to cover. And so I think breaking into the news cycle is hard sometimes because especially with a complex story like this. Um so I think that's part of it. But I I do think a lot of them are also, you know, we're pretty the the title of the book has you know dark money, it has human trafficking, it's got right-wing conspiracy. They are pretty punchy allegations. They're punchy, and so uh, and so I think you know, the media is probab that probably puts some of the media off as well, because they're like, Okay, do we really kind of want to stick our necks out on this? And so, yeah, I mean, but like I say, I'm hopeful that when we get an an announcement from the Vatican that will create space. Yeah, it will make sense for people to to cover this. We will see.

SPEAKER_00 50:06

Cool. Well, Gareth, once again, mate, can't thank you enough for being so generous with your time. And everyone listening to this will find links to the book in the description. Um, but also listen to the first episode if this piques your interest at all and you've never heard of Opus Day, because Gareth has an incredible story to tell. And to be fair, the story of Opus Day is also just fantastic. It's so ambitious, and they nailed it. And, you know, take it or leave it, it's really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 50:35

Thanks for having me online. It's been a pleasure.