Ed Cowan | Australian Test Cricket... “The output's objective. There's nothing subjective about a twenty-ball duck”

Ed Cowan is an Australian test cricketer, investor, podcaster and author.

He’s one of those people whose name I jotted down 6 years ago when I started the show earmarked as a ‘dream guest’.

He played in a golden era of Australian cricket and did so at a time when I was obsessed with the sport myself (I had delusions about being a test cricketer) and therefore like the music of your youth those cricketers you grew up with leave a certain impression. I've since been a long time listener of his 'Scaling Up' podcast series and tune in weekly for the ABC Cricket Podcast where he is a co-host.

Ed has an occasionally controversial, but always influential voice on the Australian cricketing landscape.

It's an absolute pleasure to have recorded this with him.

He had 32 test innings for Australia across 18 matches, scored one test hundred and over 1000 runs in total.

You’ll find a link to both his book and his podcast here. 

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It’s an enormous pleasure to have spoken with Ed, we discussed...

• How Ed always kept a foot in multiple worlds, even though it came at a cost. 
• The transition out of professional sport and why so many athletes struggle with it.
• His mentor Peter Roebuck
• Mental health in cricket and how the culture has shifted.
• His Test career: the debut hundred, the weight of expectation, homework-gate, and his illness that coincided with the Ashes and the end of his international career.
• Ed’s views on IPL money, BBL privitisation and governance.
• The business of cricket: how he'd restructure Cricket Australia, player pay, and bringing patient, evergreen capital into the Big Bash.
• And, as always, the role serendipity has played in his life, to which, as an opening batsman, he had the perfect answer.

Timestamps...

00:00 — Realising a cricket career was possible

02:17 — Under-19s in Sri Lanka, surrounded by future Test players

07:38 — The transition myth: why it's a decade, not twelve months

14:08 — Do athletes have too much free time?

17:03 — Travel, brooding, and the Matthew Talbot shelter that shifted his perspective

27:02 — The Cricinfo depression piece

33:31 — NSW's logjam of talent and the fresh start in Tasmania

36:30 — Called up to Australia; the left-handed-opener mystery

39:36 — Peter Roebuck: discipline, mangoes, and the debut century dedicated to him

44:43 — The 18 innings: expectation, emotional regulation, homework-gate

50:42 — The Ashes, falling ill, and his final Test

54:00 — Resentment, selection, and "perception is reality"

55:12 — Death of a Gentleman, the IPL, and cricket's governance crisis

1:00:23 — Ambitions in cricket; the ABC podcast as a public service

1:08:08 — Privatising the Big Bash and bringing in patient capital

1:13:55 — Serendipity, Gideon Haig, and "I was an opening batsman"

Some choice snippets from the conversation.

On transition out of sport

"A lot of sportspeople think transition is your last twelve months of playing and your first twelve months of the real world. That's only a tiny speck of what it actually looks like. You come out of sport and you're at the bottom of the next mountain — you've got the tools to climb it, but that's another journey in and of itself."

On identity

"One of the thresholds is: do you still think of yourself as a cricketer? It's not part of my identity anymore at all. Some people say, 'You're the guy who used to play cricket.' Yeah, that was me. But that takes a while."

On the perspective that pulled him out of a funk (volunteering at the Matthew Talbot shelter)

"Here I was brooding over nicking one to second slip the day before. And here are guys who hadn't made any bad choices — they were just out of luck."

On the chip on his shoulder

"You think I'm not training hard enough? I'll beat you in the beep test. You think I'm not preparing properly? I'll get a hundred on the weekend."

On why cricket breeds brooders

"The output's objective. There's nothing subjective about getting a twenty-ball duck. And the time lag from error to atonement is long — it can be two days, and you're doing nothing.""The key to good mental health in cricket is celebrating your teammates' success. That's rarer than you'd think."

On the fresh start in Tasmania

"The joy of a fresh start is you can be whoever you want to be the moment you walk in the door. There's no judgment about what school you went to. You're judged from day one only."

On luck (the serendipity close)

"Two more centimetres of Morne Morkel's size-fourteen boot behind the line, and I'm out for forty-eight. No one remembers Ed Cowan, Test century.""The harder you work, the luckier you get. Luck can come and find you — but it's up to each individual to make that lucky moment count."

On the business of cricket

"Our best players probably don't get paid enough, and our worst players get paid too much.""An IPL owner's incentive is not to grow the Big Bash. It's to pillage the Big Bash so the IPL gets stronger."

Podcast Starter Packs

• Investigative Journalists
• Offshore Finance/Kleptocracy & Money Laundering
• Geopolitics/Economics/Economic Development
• Explorers & Adventurers

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

At what age did you realize that a career could be made out of cricket?

SPEAKER_02 0:06

Oh, look, probably not till my early twenties actually. It was something that I always dreamt of and I I I didn't realise how d deeply I did want to do it until maybe when I was twenty five, twenty-six. And my dad had found a drawing at home from when I was obviously in kindergarten or year one or two. And it's like, what what do you want to be? And I'd draw on a cricket field and I want to be a cricketer. So it was obviously in there somewhere. Uh but I grew up in a family that, you know, playing professional sport wasn't really on the bingo card. It was it was a very business focused family. We loved our sport uh and would fight for the the newspaper. The Sydney Morning Herald obviously has the sport and the business uh on the in the same section. Uh and would fight over that, but for different reasons. It was either some days it was for the business section, some days for the sports section, just to kind of give some background. Uh and so yeah, we we loved playing sport. I went to university, I got a went and got a job. I knew from the age of probably 15 or 16 that I was better than most, but I wasn't absolutely king of the kids, and so if I wanted to do it, I had to really grind it out. And that helped in many respects because I kind of had this duality to these paths of of wanting a degree, and my dad was always very big on never put all your eggs in one basket, you never know what's going to happen in your life. And this passion for for sport, and it wasn't just cricket, I played um rugby in right through uh my first year of university. Uh I played tennis growing up, uh I loved all team sports, and so you know, cricket became a a focus probably in my late teens, but it wasn't until you know I was 20, 21 that I that I really thought that being a professional cricketer was was was not just a chance, but you know, something that I I deeply wanted to do.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Is it interesting that you say not until you're 25, 26 did you realise maybe you wanted to do it? Because you toured Sri Lanka when you were 18 or 19 with the Australian under 19 squad. Isn't this a bit of a signal that perhaps my career is going to be playing cricket?

SPEAKER_02 2:33

Yeah, I mean, so looking looking back at that team, it was you don't know at the time, but you're kind of surrounded by greatness. You know, yeah, captained by Michael Clark, my roommate at the time was Shane Watson, who I'm still great friends with, Mitch Johnson, Nathan Horritz, uh, you know, Sean Marsh. I think of that team, uh, and that's just to name a few. I think of the the touring team of I don't know, maybe there were 15 or 16, 11 played test cricket. Wow. And the other two or three had had great careers, you know, people like Chris Hartley or Paul Rofe had amazing first-class careers, but but never played Test cricket. Uh so yeah, I mean, looking back, yeah, I I think it's easy to say, oh, you're in the the Australian 19s uh and and cricket's at your beck and call. And that was a year before my actual age group was up. So I was underage and I was still doing my HSC. The following year, I went back to the National Under 19s carnival and couldn't spell the word bat. Literally did not get a run, missed out on the National 19s team. So, you know, the ups and downs of thinking that you're the king maker and you you're in the basement pretty quickly the the following year. So it was still at that point very much up in the air. Professional cricket in Australia was just starting to take off. There were no rookie contracts at the time. And so if you look through the New South Wales team, it was uh star-studded. And then even when I when I did get my first rookie contract, you know, it was the War Twins and Slater and Bever. You know, so the the the thought of even playing for New South Wales at that point in time, you know, was still even far removed. So I wanted to do it. I was gonna give all my energy and discipline to try and make it happen, but there was never any expectation. It was always, it always felt like if I do the work and I put the performance on the board, it's a chance. But it's not like today there was such limited opportunity for a 19, 20-year-old kid to turn up and and play Sheffield Shield cricket. There were there was no big bash to be uh to to be cutting your teeth in and and you know, catapulted into stardom. So it was a it was a real grind at the time and and uh I was up for it, uh thankfully, but there were also other other gas burners on the go which, you know, I'm I'm grateful for as well.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

100%. Did you always have this idea that even if I did go into professional sports, I was going to defer to a some type of corporate career after that was had all been said and done anyway, because it was of equal interest, or rather because it felt like an expectation that this is what a responsible cowan should be doing.

SPEAKER_02 5:16

I'm sure there was a bit of both. I'd like to think more the former than the latter. And and my uh dad was incredibly supportive, my cricket, never pushy, but incredibly supportive. Um but he was he also had the the world view uh and the the balance, I guess, to say sport is fickle, you never know when you're gonna break your leg or you're injured. And so don't be an idiot and think that you're gonna play if even if you do make it in sport, you're gonna play forever. And so keep your study up. Don't even think about uh not going to university, don't think about having some kind of corporate experience because as it turns out, I I feel like I had a I was very lucky, I had a great cricket career. I finished when I was 36. I'm I'm now 44. You know, it feels like life is only just starting. So uh if I hadn't taken that advice, and and I'm sure you'll you'll kind of dig into this, it can be a lonely world for for transitioning athletes that don't know what they want to do. So I I feel like I was lucky, but in many respects created a little bit of that luck through you know that the hard work that that went in to make sure that I was in a position to to move out of the game well.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

It it you could say it's lucky, but I think it sounds like a bit of a false humility there because it's a you were planning for it throughout university. You went to Oxford, um, I think it was Gresham Partners you ended up working for as well, and then you got the master's in finance. So you were thinking about it big time.

SPEAKER_02 6:53

Oh, for sure. And even when you know, when I got dropped out of the Australian team, so I don't know, I was 32. At that point in time, I really accelerated my work around what does the end of my career look like. I want to still play cricket for Australia again, and I'm gonna push hard to do that. But let's make sure that the the moment I want to finish playing cricket, I'm ready to move on to something else, not finish and then decide what was happening. So it was like a five-year journey and an intensive five-year journey. Uh and then it felt like it was five years on the other side of that to transition. And you have a child in the middle of that. Yeah, yeah, family and and marriage and whatever. So it it felt like it was a 10-year journey. And a I think where a lot of sports people get hooked into, they think transition is twelve your last 12 months of playing and your first 12 months of of the real world. And that's that's only just a tiny speck of what the transition phase actually looks like because you come out of sport and you're at the bottom of that next mountain. And if you want to climb it, you have the tools to climb it and and climb it fast. But that that's a that's another journey in and of itself. And I'm you know, I'm not even a third of the way up the next mountain and and enjoying that that grind to try and get to the top. So do you you you don't feel like a transitioned fully athlete yet? Probably not. I don't I mean, I think one of the thresholds is do you think about your cricket career, or do I think of myself as a career? I I don't even think about that now. So yeah, I'm still involved in cricket on the board of Kingsley Wales and and through the ABC. So I think about the game, but I can't see myself as a former player. Yeah. And maybe because I've removed myself from commentary and you know, I'm not in and around the circles all that much. Uh and so I think of I think of myself as a normal citizen. You know, where a lot of a lot of ex-sports people still try and hang on to that. Uh and it takes a while, and um but I I think that's one of the thresholds to realise that you have transition. It's not part of my identity anymore at all. I I some people say, Oh, you're the guy used to play cricket. I'm like, oh yeah, that oh I did. Uh that is me. Uh, but that's that takes a while.

SPEAKER_00 9:13

Um is it psychologically difficult to get over when there's all these expectations from a lot of people that you do meet? Like I want to talk to Ed Cowan, the cricketer, you know, maybe not Ed Cowan the blowcomer.

SPEAKER_02 9:26

Um I don't know. I I think if anyone wants to I love talking cricket. I'm so passionate about the game and I feel lucky that I finish on my own terms and I still love the game and want to contribute to the game. So if if you came up to the street and wanted to talk cricket, I would fully embrace that. And I think people like that because they're getting Ed Cowan the bloke authentically who loves cricket, not Ed Cowan, the former cricketer who's talking to you because he feels like there's some brand or profile to being being nice to the guy on the street. Yeah. So I think there's there's a bit of a delineation there because I I do know some former cricketers that don't enjoy that interaction but feel obliged to do it. I I feel no obligation.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

You mentioned the transitioning uh cricketers before, how it's diff it was difficult for a lot of athletes to properly transition into what their next life was. Uh were you unusual in the fact that you always had an exit route that you were thinking about and also intrigued by, like genuinely wanted to work in that?

SPEAKER_02 10:28

I don't know if I was unusual. Uh well I mean what I do know is a lot of athletes struggle in their transition. And that's because they don't know what their next passion is, and and that's fine, and it and maybe many of them don't find it. Uh some do in coaching, some do in in commentary. But in terms of outside the sphere of cricket, maybe it's unusual because I think if you go back, uh there aren't many people who are willing to uh you know, in those formative cricket years actually go to university and and tread that path of of grinding out both. Uh and when you finish playing cricket, it's and you're 30 or 35, it's pretty hard to do something substantial without having shown any interest in in anything before.

SPEAKER_00 11:18

Totally. A lot a lot of the success most people have in their 30s comes from all the work that they'd done in their 20s, whether it showed any success from it or not. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:28

And professional cricket has, you know, there's two sides to the coin. It's been amazing from a uh quality, you know, what the the cricketer can do and the opportunities it affords them, and they're being paid appropriately for their time and the value that they create for the sport. But the flip side of that is most athletes are now pretty lazy around, you know, life after sport because it's it's pretty lucrative to throw all your eggs in the basket, which wasn't the case, thankfully, you know, when right when I was on on the cusp. And the generation before me, they had no other option but to have a job because you know they were paid per game, but there were no contracts uh often, and certainly not contracts of size and scale unless you were playing for Australia, and even then, you know, they're not even comparable to the to the contracts today. And you've seen though a lot a lot of those cricketers, sadly, have really struggled in transition because they didn't make the money, nor did they give the time to thinking about what else was going on in their life. So they were caught in a in a huge trap, and with you know, there are some high-profile cases around that. And the generation before them was probably it that was a nice balance. And and if you think about you know the word amateur, it really means to love. You know, they they were amateurs. They played the game because they loved it. And they had to have full-time jobs and they turned up and you know, maybe their expenses were covered. But they played for you know their careers were a lot shorter. These are state cricketers? Yeah, these are state cricketers, Sheffieldshield cricketers in the 70s, you know, they they all had jobs. Uh even national cricketers at that point in time. And so uh, you know, their careers were shorter, so it was probably easier to transition, but they were normal humans just playing cricket, not cricketers trying to transition back to normal life. And so, you know, it's it's interesting now some of the highest profile cricketers are the ones that that struggle the most, even though that they're the ones that have the highest earnings power while they play. And and that's true probably the world over across all kinds of sports.

SPEAKER_00 13:40

You mean even right now? I thought you were making the comparison that someone like Stark in one season of the IPL could eclipse Matt Hayden's career earnings. Oh, for sure. Something like that. I mean, that is that is true. Yeah. Um which I imagine you you feel a bit of resentment.

SPEAKER_02 13:59

I'm sure I'm sure former players I'm sure they do. Well, some do. I'm sure some don't as well. Um but it it is a very odd dynamic and it's only moving one way.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

Am I wrong in assuming that you actually do have quite a bit of free time, even as a professional cricketer? Is this a like a a prejudice from me, just imagining that athletes have it easy? Uh so it's not.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

And I'm I'm very big on this, and I I would get pushback the whole time, even when I was playing. So not to go into the the day-to-day uh training regime of a professional athlete, but there's only so much training you can do. So if you imagine the off season for a cricketer who's not playing overseas or in the IPL, you know, their training day, they might go to the gym. Well, I mean, tough gig, 8 till 9.30. They might have a cup of coffee, a little light, light snack, refuel their body, hit a few balls. Okay, it's now 1.30. What do you do? Well, most of them go play golf. Or most of them go and game, or some go and gamble. You know, like there are some there's some real shadow side to that. But other than that, oh, you know, it's nice to relax and wind down. I was like, no bugger that. I'm gonna go start a small business. I I would get so bored in that, go start a small business, I'd go do my masters. And so I would always encourage people, say you have five or six or sometimes seven hours a day, and sometimes a day off in the middle of the week. What are you gonna do productively with that time in an off season? And you know, some people use it really effectively and others don't. And it's that investment, it's that time investment that actually you get paid on when you finish. And it's bloody hard to convince young players that that time is just as important. Uh, but uh it it's easy to to want to go play golf because it's a great life. You get well paid or go for a surf or Oh, it's it's the best.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

And if you've decided that your career is going to be in sport, yeah. Like that's also that's perhaps one of the benefits of going into a career of sport. Um obviously, personally, there's an a huge amount of expectation and stress level that one has to live through. But compared to a real job, uh it sounds really nice.

SPEAKER_02 16:21

It's it can be. And then it's very different in season. That's that's a different cadence, and it's pretty hard to do something, you know. That's when you do need to decompress and find time to go for a swim or a walk or a game of golf because the pressures of performance are intense and they're never ending. And particularly for cricket, because it's not a weekly cadence, you play Saturday and play Saturday. You've got four days, you've got a travel day, you've got a training day, and you might be back playing, you know, two or three days later. And so there is there is an element of that, but that's that's a pretty short, kind of intense period that you know you can you can manage.

SPEAKER_00 17:02

That that uh travel component r really came out from the book. You wrote a book called In the Firing Line, which was a diary of 2011 season with Tasmania. And because you're down in in Hobart, all of the travel that you had to do and just the you know, the two planes everywhere. The little indentation didn't, yeah. Exactly. It felt it felt stressful just taking on that travel workload, uh, especially if you want to do something else on top of it as well. But do you think that just ignoring the pure downtime, whether it was playing FIFA or bl going to play around a golf, which I'm sure you did as well, but like not for an entire afternoon. Um do you think that actually maybe helped you on the mental health side of things as an escapism from the cricket? Because I imagine one can just lull and um ruminate for long, long periods of time, not doing anything productive that doesn't actually contribute to your next innings for sure.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

Uh and I worked that out pretty quickly that I was a brooder and I needed to I needed to find ways to get either distract my conscious and subconscious mind away from that, and part of that was writing, and that's why you know I started writing a diary, just to get things out, and also to have other interests in life. And I've I learnt probably the hard way. There was a moment when I was playing for New South Wales that I was struggling, I was in and out of the team, I wasn't scoring runs, my career wasn't going how I wanted it to. Uh, I wasn't working, I wasn't studying, and all my focus was on cricket, and that was all consuming. And you know, I it it wasn't I'm sure at the time there was an element of some kind of depression as to to what it was. And uh Matthew Nicholson, who uh played test cricket and was a a fine first class cricketer, said, Oh mate, you you you look to be struggling a bit. I said, Yeah, I'm I'm not doing too well. He said, Go take yourself down to Matthew Talbot down in Willamaloo and just maybe maybe do a couple of shifts there. Just just give some time and and see what the real world you know looks like. And it was an amazing advice. Uh and I did that, and it it actually flicked flicked the switch pretty quickly. What's Matthew Talbot? It's uh it's a shelter for for transitioning um for homeless men, essentially, that are transitioning between uh homelessness and and formal uh housing. And what I realized was you know, I was so bloody like here I was brooding over, you know, nicking a a bald a second slip the day before, and sure it's your career, but here are guys that many or most hadn't actually made any bad choices. They were just out of luck, you know, you and you have this this kind of mindset that uh, you know, if someone is struggling to house themselves, they must be drug addicts or they must be, you know, pick your pick your subheading. In actual fact, they were just, you know, a a vast majority had made one or two bad decisions and were out of luck. And that made me feel pretty good about myself. Uh and that wasn't the intent of of doing it, but it gave me a great perspective and recognition of how lucky I was. And the gratitude that came from that actually kicked me out of a a little bit of a funk and and allowed me to say, hey, there are other things aside from cricket that I really need to accelerate. And so it was after that I went back to uni. And it was just a it was a moment in time that um, you know, was quite important to to kind of shift my perspective out of you know what you were talking about.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

Do you think that the perception of you always hedging your bets for a career post-cricket potentially affected the way selectors and coaches viewed you?

SPEAKER_02 21:01

For sure. Absolutely. And I don't think that would happen now, but at the time, you know, cricket had just become professional. How crazy would you be not to throw all your eggs? You're now being paid, son, and so you better be here from you know sunrise to sunset giving every ounce of sure you were anyway. Oh exactly. You know what I mean? And and so and and more so, you know, when I my first contract, I was still working uh for Gresham, and so I'd go to training at 5 a.m. uh before anyone else, then go to work, then come back to training, then go back to work, then go back to training. And so I felt like I was giving more, but that wasn't the perspective. That was that was me hedging my bets and I wasn't all in, and I copped a lot of grief for that. From who? Players coaching staff were I think were more understanding, but some probably weren't. Because they have real jobs themselves. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so yeah, that was I mean it didn't last for that long because it wasn't that sustainable when you actually started playing properly or if you're in the team and taking time off work. So but it was definitely a perception.

SPEAKER_00 22:13

Was it passive aggressive towards you or was it just outright Ed, your priorities are wrong? What's what are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 22:20

Oh a bit of both. Yeah. Depending on who the player was. Sometimes it was passive, sometimes it was just aggressive. How'd you how'd you how'd you deal with that? Is there a way to communicate out of it? Not as not as the youngest player in the squad, no. Okay, sure. You just you you take that on the chin. So my way of dealing that with that was to prove them that was the chip on the shoulder. To score runs. Yeah. I want to be the fittest. You think that I'm not training hard enough, I'll beat you in the beep test. You think I'm I'm not preparing properly, I'll get a hundred on the weekend. And so it actually encouraged me to be I mean, maybe that was their intent all along, to be a better player. Because it got me fit, it got me hungry, and you know, motivation's a wonderful thing, and people are motivated by different things. But a lot of my early career motivation was from wanting to prove people wrong.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

And you think it's quite different now in the current setup, people are almost encouraged to take on uh not hedging bets, but in entire fields of interest that might potentially support them post-career. Aaron Ross Powell For sure.

SPEAKER_02 23:22

There's full-time professional development managers in every team, male and female. The ACA has done an amazing job around education grants. And so it's it's culturally, it's just uh we're in a totally different place. What what what changed that culture, do you think? Uh I think years of research, understanding that, you know, professional sports people are at risk when they transition, unless we invest in that, uh, you're doing them a great disservice.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Aaron Powell Do you think also the the culture shifted a little bit from less of a because if cricket is just burgeoning as a professional sport, then it's still very rooted to the Larricanism, egalitarianism, Australianness that maybe is very closely associated with cricket. But now it's much more an international sport. It's well known how much money these guys are making. They're kind of models, they're all all over everything, you know, they're doing TV ads. And so our perception shifts of actually who these type of people are, and therefore expectations might change of them as well. So take Steve Smith, for instance. Had he been playing in 2005, I think the country would think so differently of him. Yet he's admired greatly now. And that might just be my own biased perception from my own generational view of things. Interesting. Um I haven't thought of it like that.

SPEAKER_01 24:37

You know what I mean? You could be right. Don't know. Wanna reflect on it at all?

SPEAKER_04 24:44

Well I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

I don't uh i it's it's kind of hard to to comment. I I think more broadly, we always there's always some recency bias in how we see the the current players. Uh, you know, so and and for those w we always gravitate to those we grew up with in our formative years of 10 to 20, they're our favourite players and they're far better than the modern, you know, the the modern player's never as good as, you know, Steve Smith isn't as good as Steve Warr. Uh well statistically some would say he's far better than Steve War, but Steve War was my hero. And so it's very hard to put someone that you played with and saw develop in the same bucket as your childhood hero. But he is. He's the the the greatest modern day batsman we've ever produced. And so if he was playing in 2005, I think we'd find room for Steve Smith's uh quirkiness and ability. And you know, his i yes, he's his he's his own person, but there were the personalities back then that that were very much the same. And so it it is hard. It's hard to compare years, it's hard to compare personalities.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

That's why I'm kind of loathed to do it. It could just be a massive bias of mine as well, because I listen to the great cricketer, and you know, maybe I'm just adopting whatever their idea is of what cricket culture is evolving over time.

SPEAKER_02 25:57

I mean, they're they're good uh I mean there's no one better uh across any spectrum in terms of grabbing hold of something and shaking it and putting a mirror up to uh you know both uh the cultural norms of sport and society more broadly that have done an amazing job.

SPEAKER_00 26:15

And you were the first guest on that show. Is that right? I have a memory because you were on um Equity Mates as the first guest, and then you in the opening monologue you said first guest on TGC, first guest on equity.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

I mean uh the one because I think you did the opening season for each TGC one. I did yeah, I did for a while, and also uh one thing I'm was great fun at the time, and they're obviously now doing buddy stadium shows at a you know around the world, but we uh they invited me to do their life their first live shows. So when was that, 2018 or 2019? And so, you know, they were just playing in little comedy clubs, and that was that was great fun. Uh so I did a couple of shows with them then.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

That was that was a real highlight. So you you m said before, admitted to being quite a brooder. You famously wrote this um piece in The Guardian, I think it was. No, it was the ESPN Crick Creek Info. Creek Info, yeah. You famously wrote this piece uh in Creek Info about how speculating rather that cricket attracted more depressive personalities than maybe did other sports, but then professional athletes generally also typically were more depressive than um regular society. So since that's one of the first things that kinds of come up about you when I research into you. I hope that I mean Yeah, okay, go. Well, you know, I'm it's what the algorithm is uh is trending towards at least. So uh over the years, has that become a bit of a like a lightning what's the word? Like a lighthouse effect where a lot of people have opened up to you about their own uh experience of depression within cricket, thinking you to be a sympathetic ear to it?

SPEAKER_02 28:01

Not really. I mean I've had a few very close friends who've um openly struggled with depression and you know have have been you know somewhat on on that journey with them. Uh uh I can't remember what the the trigger was to write. I was writing a little bit for Crick Info at the time. I was enjoying uh writing and always kind of looking for interesting things to write about. And I think it came might have come from a discussion I'd had with my friend Gideon. Uh so I I can't remember the how it came about, but uh it did take me on a bit of a journey to try and understand my own uh emotional state when I was playing cricket and why. And uh, you know, sometimes and it was part of that reflective nature. I was, you know, sometimes too reflective, and uh but it did help me deal with emotions that I was going through. So aside from that one kind of little dip early, I I I felt like my mental health was was pretty good. And so I was always kind of hesitant to comment more broadly, but it it did feel like I, you know, I I could see people with with large variations and you know, and I think the stats kind of backed it up. Um the other thing that, you know, that was really troubling, I remember uh the ACA did uh so the Australian Cricket Association did a uh mental health survey and the the results got flashed up, you know, to the the squad at the start of the season. It was like one in four current cricketers had had suicidal thoughts in the last um you know 24 months. I don't know what the exact stat was, but it was alarming. Might have been one in five, might have been one in six, but who cares? It's like way too high. Way too high. And I was like, holy shit, that's uh that's pretty dramatic. You know, here am I thinking I'm I'm just brooding on the side and writing a little diary to try and calm my my little brain from running off into the distance. And there are people who are clearly really struggling but not talking about it, but are willing to kind of give their thoughts in a survey. So it was I'm glad I wrote it, and a few people at the time reached out, and I think one thing cricket has done very well, and we've seen this more recently, is people it's it's no longer stigmatized. We've seen lots of people take mental health breaks, and that should be encouraged, and it should be encouraged across society. But we've seen high-profile players take a step back to prioritize their mental health. And back in the day, not back in the day, but only a few years earlier, that would have been a huge no-no. So the the game has made dramatic steps forward, knowing for whatever reason whether people are attracted to the game, whether the game uh you know creates a certain type of personality, whatever the reasons, and people can kind of read the article. Um the output has changed. And we should be proud of that, that that people can do that and and be s be as well supported as they are.

SPEAKER_00 31:17

Yeah, it seems inconceivable if you're getting a hard time about going to university in your free time for someone to take off maybe half a season or not do preparation for the season because of a mental health break, it would be almost being dropped immediately. Yeah, for sure. The I mean the game has changed for the better, no doubt. And you wrote in that article about cricket specifically, like uh You have to remind me because it was a long time ago and I ha I haven't had it. So you made a particular case for why depression is more rather, you made a particular case for why crickets can create more depression because it's this team sport, but it's it's so individualistic, especially as a batsman who maybe isn't bowling, you know, maybe doesn't get a catch every single or drops of the catch having scored a duck. Yeah. So the lag between the failure and then the ability to rectify it. Yeah. But then as well, just how unforgiving a sport it is because one mistake is enough to get you out, and you may have had an incredibly good start to the innings and you can still get out. And it is unlike other sports in that way. Um so I just thought it was And the And the output's objective.

SPEAKER_02 32:26

There's nothing subjective about getting a a 20-ball duck. Like it's there for everyone to see, and and it's deeply based in statistics. And and you're right, I think the the time lag from error to atonement or potential atonement is is long. It can be two days and you can be doing nothing. You can be watching, you know, and and you gotta I think the the key to good mental health in cricket is celebrating your teammates' success because you know it's so high if you're a young player and you know you're you're trying to f make a career and you're always looking around saying who else is scoring runs, who could take my spot. But to actually embrace that and say, I'm solely here for the team, I'm gonna do what's my job today. I'm gonna turn up and try and do that job to the best of my ability. Some days it's gonna work, some days it's gonna not work, but I'm going to go out of my way to contribute and celebrate other people in this team, and that that can give you happiness as well. But I think that's that's rarer than you think in in cricket teams.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

So just reminding you, I am editing it, and this is a potentially provocative question, so don't answer it if you don't want to. Um but in writing that piece, the context is that you were playing for New South Wales and surrounded by just generational talents. I think I was playing for Taz the other time. Uh but it was ruminating from this experience. Yeah. Watson Caddich, Phil Jarks, Phil Hughes, Dave Warner. I think all these people were in the New South Wales squad uh before you had to go to Tasmania. Generational talents horrible to be another generational talent, having to compete with all of these guys every single week. Um how much of writing about that was maybe a just a projection of your own disappointments with the game?

SPEAKER_02 34:15

Huh, I'm sure there was without psychoanalysing uh something that was now fifteen years ago, which even blows my mind, uh I'm sure there would have been something inside of that. I mean, I I w I was disappointed with the first third of my career. And so maybe I was trying to find either justifications or I I I don't know. Um but what I do know is I I found a way to overcome that because I didn't I didn't want that to be the defining element of my my cricket. And when I w moved to Tassie, it was uh it was for two years. It was like, I'll just give this a go. I need to do something, I need a change, I'm not improving. All these guys are well ahead of me in the pecking order for whatever reason, and I'm off. I just need a fresh start. And the joy of a fresh start is you can be whoever you want to be the moment you walk in the door, and there's no judgment about what school you went to, whether you gave it all, you know, with a part-time job, or you you are judged from day one only. They don't know anything. They, you know, they've done their research around your cricket and maybe your personality, and I was friends with a few people in the in the team. But if you go to Tasmania and you don't score runs, you're back in New South Wales. Or it's up to you. You score runs and and you're away, and you can prove the to be the player that you wanted to be. And I and I enjoyed that, and lots of other players enjoy that too. New South Wales still produces, you know, 40% of cricket of professional crickets in Australia. The South Australian team that's won the Sheffield Shield has, you know, what, six or seven former New South Wales players that never really played for New South Wales and yet they're the national champions. And so there's something in that. You know, as a mid-20s male, having to prove yourself, having maybe been given something when you were young and thought you were deserving of it, or you know, to have a f a blank sheet of paper and to write your story, it's kind of you know, it it's it's it's quite inspiring to have that opportunity. And I and it I I certainly thrived with that and a lot of other people do as well.

SPEAKER_00 36:30

Yeah, in your case it turned out really well because after a few good seasons with Tasmania, you're called up to the Australian test team.

SPEAKER_02 36:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:37

Uh yeah, it's something I never thought would happen, definitely when I moved. You really never thought it would happen.

SPEAKER_02 36:42

I th I thought it would happen. Probably as a 16-year-old, and you're like, Oh, I'm gonna play Test cricket. You've got no idea what goes into that or the chances of that happening. There have been at the time, for before me, 426 people in the history of Australian cricket to play test cricket, of which a hundred were alive, and you know, the rest were, you know, well and truly buried in an incredible legacy. So the chances of playing cricket for Australia, you don't realise that when you said 16 I want to play Test cricket, are so or at the time was so slim. And you know, the the closer you get, the more you realise how far away you are. So yes, you're only Gosh, you only you only think, oh, I'm three good innings from playing for Australia. You're not three good innings from playing for Australia, particularly not then. Uh you're three good seasons away from playing for Australia, and that's ten good innings, and what does ten good innings look like? Oh god, that's a bit scary, you know.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

Yeah, so it's and a combination of circumstances completely outside of your control. For sure. What's the team makeup look like? Is the touring side really good and going to make everyone look terrible so there's gonna be a few spots that open up?

SPEAKER_02 37:47

Of course. You know, and I know you're big on serendipity. Luck plays more of a role. You can you know, think of the great players that never really had great test careers like Brad Hodge or Martin Love, you know, they they got a chance and they is is you know, they they did well when they played, but in any other moment of time, they would have been they could have been the Steve Smiths, who knows? Um, you know, that they were generational players of of their era, but there also happened to be eight other generational players at the time.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

So the most stacked side ever. Yeah. Um what is it about lefties? Because I it just stood out to me as I was reading that. Kadic, Jarks, Hughes, Warner, Cowan, Kowaja. Uh Kowaja, and then you look at the historical openers Langer, Hayden. It's because you can't get out of OGW. I mean, well what is it? I don't know. Uh uh look. Is it is it unnatural for right-arm seamers to bowl to lefties because they don't statistically, as they're going through the growing up years, they don't have enough of those balls bowled?

SPEAKER_02 38:49

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 38:50

I don't know what it is. Surely someone's done an analysis on it. I'm sure they have. Because there's a percentage of left-handed population out there, they overrepresent uh really good cricketers.

SPEAKER_02 38:59

Yeah, I think you also uh need to realise like what what goes into good left-handed batting, and your top hand is still your right hand. And so uh, you know, that that there aren't many left-handed batsmen that are actually dominant left-handed humans. So f of the of that lot, Phil Jakes is the only one. Sorry, Simon Cadic as well. So myself, Dave Warner, Wuss McGuire. You're right-handed.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:27

We're all right-handed opposite. So you golf right-handed. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 39:29

That's really funny. And Clark was the opposite, right? Clark was the opposite. Yeah. So I don't know. Um there's a there's a fella in the research that stands out quite a lot, and it's a guy called Peter Roebuck. So he was a coach of yours during school. Um, and it seems like he left a huge impression on you.

SPEAKER_02 39:50

Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, I I didn't have any formal I didn't play a game of cricket till I was like 11 or 12, you know, in in primary school, which is unfathomable today. You see these rep under eight teams and people throw a travel country and play all weekend. So I I had two older brothers and you know followed their cricket and would always bet their games, but I didn't play a formal game myself. And my first coaching was when I was 12 or 13. Uh, and it was from Peter Robuck, who was associated with the school, but you know, had coached a few people on the side, and he had a big influence on my career in in many respects. But what he taught me was discipline. So, you know, you had to call him to organize this is long before text messages. You'd you'd call him at his house and say, uh, Mr. Robach, you know, I'd like a batting session. He'd say, Okay, I'll see you at six o'clock tomorrow morning. You're like, Oh God, six o'clock, how am I getting there? You know, so you'd get you'd get your creeky, you'd get on the bus. There's no Uber back in the day, uh, you know, in 1995 or whenever it was. So, and it was a test. He he didn't want to coach people who you know didn't want to turn up at six o'clock and he'd make you run around the oval to, you know, at 6 a.m. in in the half half light of spring, and then he'd throw balls at your head and try and toughen you up. You know, like it was uh it was a it was a test. And as a 12-year-old who, you know, had a pretty easy life, realistically, this was a this was eye-opening. Uh, but it it it taught me discipline and and you know, I think my family is a very disciplined family, so it kind of aligned with how our worlds worked anyway, but it was it was one more step of if you if you want this, you've got to really go get it. Um he never accepted payment. You know, he had to he said, just you know, bring me a mango, bring me a mango for breakfast. So, you know, you'd go to the fruit shop the night before and get a mango and you'd pack your mango and your kit and you get on the bus and you go to go to uh cricket training at 6 a.m. Um and so you know Peter was an enigma, you know, for those that um you know, an amazing journalist. Uh he was a he was a excellent cricketer at Captain Somerset. Um but he w he was a a man into himself. He was he was certainly someone who did things his own way, and you know, I'm a big believer in only judging people and how they treat you. And so, you know, people who are familiar with his his sad death would would probably try and join some dots here. He was incredible to me, and so I'm always going to say he's a great person. I don't know, you know the exact nature of a whole range of other things in his life, but he was incredible to me for a very long period of time, and I'm I'm very grateful for that.

SPEAKER_00 42:51

Did you stay in touch with him post- So you were in touch with him all throughout your state cricket, national cricket?

SPEAKER_02 42:58

Absolutely I would call him, and like any mentors in your life, you usually call them when shit's going wrong rather than when stuff's going right, but I I would talk to him three or four times a season, probably, just on the phone. He he's uh he probably stopped actively coaching me, I don't know, uh fifteen, sixteen, but and occasionally would do sessions maybe from sixteen to eighteen, but not as actively, and then it was more of a you know, a phone relationship where we'd go for walks and and would solve problems.

SPEAKER_00 43:31

And for the audience who isn't familiar, he uh committed suicide. Um after allegations had been made against him. He w he lived as a closeted gay man, it sounds like. Um and a year to the date after he had committed suicide, you scored your debut test century for Australia and then dedicated the century to him.

SPEAKER_01 43:57

Yeah, he I remember the day he died, actually.

SPEAKER_02 44:01

Um it kickstarted I w I was in a a batting funk and we were playing a one day game up in Bernie, I think or like an at an outground and I found out that he'd died and was quite uh affected by that but got some runs and then so um I think I got 90 odd that day and then a hundred hundred like it actually it kicked me out of again that moment of gratitude that I talked about earlier kind of it really impacted me, but uh you know it it it kick started me again for sure.

SPEAKER_00 44:43

Um from that test debut hundred, now there's all these expectations on your shoulders all of a sudden, like this is gonna be the opening test batsman who's gonna carry us through for five years, maybe ten years, something like that. So talk us through the next what was it? I think 14, 18 innings you had for Australia.

SPEAKER_02 45:06

So my my fur I mean, I think there was you you know the people that came before me, Hayden Langer, you know, whoever had opened the batting, they the the goalpost for them was you average fifty. And I don't if I had my time over again, I probably w maybe I shouldn't have tried to measure myself against those players, but I felt a lot of pressure and I was playing with Ponting and Hussey, who were averaging 50 at the time, you know, like that was the benchmark. Uh and came into the team, and I was ex I was expecting myself to to do that. Um so it took a while to settle in. My first series against India. I played well but didn't get 100. Got two fifties, could have got a hundred on debut at uh the MCG, should have got a hundred in Perth uh when Dave Warren at the other end probably played one of the greatest innings I've ever seen. Uh, and then we went to uh the West Indies, and no one scored any runs, it was bloody hard going. Um we won the series, but no, I think Matthew Wade was the only hundred scorer, but I think it's seven. Ponting struggled, Hussey struggled. Not Wade, yeah. Um and I ended up with 150, but I probably averaged 26. So I then came back to the Australian summer having played seven test matches with three fifties and no hundreds. And you're as a batsman in the Australian team, you're expected to score hundreds. So that first test match of the summer, like and leading up to that, I I was really struggling. Couldn't score any runs, the weight of my own expectation was significant. Uh so I remember going in thinking, mate, this is like roll the dice stuff. You you're either getting runs now or you're done. So, you know, and and that can either bring out the best in you or the worst. It probably did a bit of both. But that first things against South Africa, the Gabra brought out the best to me. And then, you know, in the third test, I probably should have scored another hundred. So if I look over those first ten tests, 100, 450s, something like that. I probably should have had three or four hundreds and made the most of that, and that takes the pressure off. When you say that you're thinking back to the innings and it was a sloppy shot, or Yeah, what I realized is what I did really well in first class cricket was manage my emotional load over a day. And what I've didn't do well in test cricket was I could manage a regulate, but I would exhaust myself after 70 or 80 balls. And I wasn't, as you know, wasn't you know the the dasher of sorts, and so at 70 or 80 balls, I was like 30, let's say. And that was just me warming up in Shield Creek, I'd settle in for the day. But the emotion of test cricket, you win the toss and you're batting, you go out to the MCG, there's a national anthem, you know, you got tears in your eyes, you you know, like it cameras are off. Yeah, it's a thing. And so I'd be so emotionally engaged for the first two hours, I'd come off exhausted. And I I would just spent myself. And so uh, you know, I it took a while to regulate that, but that's probably where my downfall was in Test cricket. And then I I felt like I was starting to regulate that. We went to India, you know, in a series that people remember was, you know, dubbed as homework gate. We got absolutely belted 4-0, hijacked on wickets that were, you know, that opened with two spinners and turning from ball one. And I was never a great player of spin, but I had reformed my game and technique for that tour, and it actually paid off. I think I faced the second most balls of the series, maybe it was third most balls of all players, Indian and Australian. So like I felt like I'd done my job.

unknown 48:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:59

And I'd uh, you know, hadn't got a big hundred, but it was bloody hard work, and I had acquitted myself for a first test tour of India, I thought. Homework gate happens, change a coach. Explain homework gate. Oh, goodness. Because that that's assuming a lot of the audience is uh homework gate was we got asked as a team, which is a pretty, I think, reasonable expectation of your boss to say, hey, we've just been absolutely belted in Hydrobad. In the next before the next test, come to me with two or three things that you are improving for yourself and you're contributing to the team to make this a better environment and more successful environment. And the coach is Darren Lehman? No, the coach is Mickey Arthur at this point. Reasonable request. Some people, I don't think, took the request seriously enough, and Mickey was at the end of his tether, and you know, they they got suspended for for for not participating in that. Doing homework. Well, it wasn't homework, it was I think that that was the press view of uh uh it's if your boss came to you and said, Ryan, here's a you know, like your position's under review, come to me please, with how you're going to improve your performance. Everyone was on a pip, basically. Yeah, exactly. The entire team was on a pip, and a few people didn't believe that that was possible, and so they rebelled against that. And in in a normal environment, you know, that um response from the boss is probably reasonable. In the Australian cricket team, it's reasonable or not, I'll let you decide. And some people didn't play. Very high high profile players.

SPEAKER_00 50:43

Because the attitude was where professional sports players this writing things down. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 50:49

Okay, okay. Uh I'm not going to speculate enough whether they wanted to do it or not. Or they forgot some people forgot. There's a whole range of things that went into the pot there. The fact was they got suspended, public erupted, we lost the next test, Mickey Arthur got sacked. So that's the kind of the storyline. Uh to then you go to the Ashes, uh, which was straight after Dave Warner and I had had done pretty well as an opening combination. He stupidly had gone and punched Joe Root, so he was suspended. Um coach didn't really think that I was up to it. And so the there was some turmoil. I then got sick mid-test match. Oh, what happened? Oh, this is a long story. Uh the the short version is my daughter had a viral illness. I caught it. I was it was coming out of both ends for hours during the first day of t the test match to the point I got a job from uh a uh injection from the doctor to to stop. I then got a duck, went back and slept for I missed Ashtonaga. I was in the hotel for two days trying to recover it to the point that I got back on the field. Anyway, that was my last test match. So um The roll of chance. The roll of chance. There you go. Because the going into that, I was I'd played county cricket, I was feeling great, I'd got some runs in the lead up, I'd had the best net session I've ever had in the my family's over there. I was ready. Like that ashes was was a moment for me. I was feeling great about my career.

SPEAKER_00 52:23

And also for the audience who maybe doesn't get the significance of the ashes. You know, this is over in England, it's this is the World Series.

SPEAKER_02 52:31

So that's it. That's the the biggest thing in cricket. Yeah, without doubt. So that didn't last. So that was that was it. That was my career. So uh I don't know how I feel like I'm rambling a little bit. I I guess my point is at that point in time I you know I was a I felt aggrieved. I felt like I my the but looking back, I did not score the runs that I should have to cement that spot. And then there are other times when I was playing shield cricket when I was playing far better cricket than when I was in the test team, I probably should have been in the test team and I would have had more chance to score. But that's the game. And when you're in it, you feel hard done by it. But if you actually take a step back and, you know, I'm 15 years later, um, pretty comfortable to say that, you know, uh it didn't feel great at the time, but it was probably the right thing to do, and so be it. That's life. Live and learn. You get and one thing I did know, it forced me to change how I played. And for the personal growth and journey that I then went on to become a better player out of the national team, the lesson I learned was far better than playing an extra 10 test matches. Um I had to take a huge amount of risk risk to reform how I played the game. Um and for that um I'm grateful, even though I never got to to exercise all those lessons again for for the Australian team, so be it.

SPEAKER_00 54:00

Am I wrong in assuming that there was some resentment for not being called back into the test team after how well you performed domestically? Resentment.

SPEAKER_02 54:12

Uh disappointment. Don't think I was ever I don't think there was ever resentment because I knew what goes into that, and selection's a you know, uh art as much as a science. So uh I was I was disappointed at times for sure.

SPEAKER_00 54:29

Just want to get a particular quote you wrote in a different context, right? So it's it it doesn't uh it doesn't work perfectly, but perception is often reality when it comes to selection. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:42

Yeah, well I I think there was I definitely, you know, applying that to the later stage of my career, I think there was still a perception that I was a stodgy opener. Um but I had rewired my game totally technically, emotionally, uh physically to become a far more attacking, free-flowing batter. Um but that that's hard to break the mould when people aren't watching all that closely and they're they're just looking at scores.

SPEAKER_00 55:12

We've got about twenty, twenty-five minutes left um for part one. Well, part one, yeah. Maybe, maybe if you want to do a part two and go into TDM. But I'm not I'm not sure. Look, as I go through this list of questions, we haven't necessarily hit them off, um, but that's absolutely fine. Uh something that stands out from rather, let me rephrase that. In preparation for my interview with Gideon Hay, um, I wanted to talk to him about all of the corruption, frankly, with the Indian cricket ball uh and the IPL. And you feature in a documentary and they happen to catch you. It's called The Death of a Gentleman. They catch you as you're making your test debut.

SPEAKER_01 55:53

Amazing, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:54

Yeah, it's absolutely amazing. So what's the story? What's the set of circumstances that they happen to find you, of all people, at this perfect time, who was also someone maybe thinking about these broader issues of the game. You later went on to do an interview with Colossus talking about the business of IPL. So you have thought about this from a governance perspective, an institutional perspective, potentially a cultural perspective of what does it mean to have India as the sort of world-leading uh people in cricket. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:22

Uh I mean, the the backstory to Death of a Gentleman was the the joy of social media in its early days was it was a far more gentle place than what it has become. And so I I made some great friends on the internet, basically. And both early on Twitter. Early on Twitter, early adopter of Twitter, and I met Samson and Jared and became friends. And they said, hey, we're coming out, we're gonna make a movie, we don't know what about, you know, this is well into the lead up. As it turns out, in the lead up, I got picked to play test cricket, and they're like, Oh, let's let's get some footage. We don't at and at the time they didn't really know what their story was gonna be about. Okay, fantastic. So uh it it wasn't it was it wasn't until uh you know the big three started to emerge and the the governance crisis of cricket at the time um started to piece together. They they realized that all their footage had kind of been at the epicenter of all of this and they kind of stitched the story together. They they never set out to to make that movie. And so I've you know, my my story became the human element around Test cricket and the primacy of Test cricket, and so you know, that that was fun. I th um again when you talk about expending energy, would I have done that again if I knew how how how emotionally involved my first test series would have been ex that? Because you know, I was doing interviews with them the day before I played every test, the day after they'd catch me, you know, on tour around my family. So it was like uh it was before the d the days of of Instagram and exposing your life to people. Th this was this was kind of rare, and I don't know if I would have done it again, but one thing I am glad for, it's it's like a time capsule. Yeah. And I I don't watch the movie all that often, but you know, there's and that they also got me right at the end of my career after I'd been dropped from the test team in England, you know, the footage went for for two and a half years. Uh yeah, but there's uh video of my dad talking about my my cricket, my daughter's first steps, you know, my wife, um, you know, in the grandstand when I when I got 50 on debut. So, you know, that there's there's stuff that I really treasure from that. Um so I'm glad I did it. Um, but I don't know if I would have done it again if I knew what was involved. Do you have other footage of your father speaking about cricket? Your cricket? Not really, no. I mean he gave a he gave uh interview on the ABC the day I got my hundred.

SPEAKER_01 59:05

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_02 59:06

That I uh he's somewhere in a in a catalogue, but but no, not really. But uh he was a a great sport, he didn't didn't miss much.

SPEAKER_00 59:14

Um I I don't know. It might feel a bit um exploitative to ask you about your your dad, especially so soon after. So you tell me if it's play on or play off. Okay. Um he unfortunately passed away about a month ago. Yeah, six weeks. Um but how have you dealt with that?

SPEAKER_01 59:36

Uh delicately asked. Look, um I won't say much, but he had a big impact on my life, and that leaves a big hole. Um that's a fair trade-off, I think. And that's a trade-off I'm happy to make.

SPEAKER_00 59:58

Um but look, we've got about 20 minutes left. I won't go into too much of the TDM stuff um just because I think it'll c um capture it all, but y I want to ask you about your ambitions for a future role within cricket here. So you're on the board of Cricket New South Wales. Yeah. There is commentary about how Cricket Australia might be able to uh change their governance and so forth. So what is your ambitions with Cricket Australia?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:23

Well, I don't have any explicit ambitions aside from I care passionately about the game and I want the game to thrive. Uh, and I feel indebted to the game for all it did for me, and this is why I'm on the board. Uh I feel indebted to give back to the game. So, you know, that comes in many forms. At the moment, it comes in the form of giving time to the Creative Soil's board, which is uh, you know, an unpaid role but takes up a lot of time. It comes in the form of uh the podcast with Corbyn, which I, you know, think of as a public service. You know, that's um you know, w we talk pretty honestly and openly about cricket and with no agenda. We don't you know, I'm beholden to no one. I'm not an employee, I'm not trying to um become a commentator, I don't need to keep people happy, I upset too many people, not intentionally, but it's just me giving my views, and so I feel like that and people respond to that, I think, and enjoy that. Uh but it does feel like we're doing the right thing by the game by talking about these issues. Uh and hopefully at some point in the in the future, there's only so much that those two things can contribute. And and why I don't commentate anymore is I felt like that was nice that was some contribution, but it it didn't really get your hands that dirty. Um and so that's why I joined the board. But there's only so much that a board member of Cricket New South Wales can do. Can you have a bigger impact on the game as a board member of Cricket Australia? Can you have a bigger impact on the game working for Cricket Australia? I don't know. But it's only well I I I I have a sense, but you know, again, there's there's a whole range of inputs into how people spend their time. And so um all I know is I would like to have a bigger impact on cricket, and in what form you you never know where that kind of takes you.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:29

You say you want to have a bigger impact on cricket. That does that does suggest to an ambition for a change that you'd like to see.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:36

From a from a cricket Australia point of view, look, I I think cricket Australia has done an amazing job um governing the game. I do think the governance of the game is probably not fit for purpose anymore. So the the current current governance structure of cricket was formulated in a time when there was no commercial aspect to the game. Um, you know, cricket Australia exists to maximize revenues to pass through to the states, which are effectively the owners of Cricket Australia, to then encourage people to play and love cricket, young, you know, participation. And so lumping all that in together in one bundle where commercial and participation are working in in kind of one stream is bloody hard. And so you could see a world where they separate out and cricket Australia has a commercial arm that has a separate governance structure and a um a cricket arm that probably maybe has a s a a separate And the cricket arm is supporting grassroots games. Correct, and right through the national team and high performance, and it it is purely cricket. Because at the moment you've got people on Cricket Australia board who are like professional directors that have Commercial through and through. Commercial through and through that uh have never played cricket. And I'm not saying they have had to. They've never had a son or daughter play cricket. Uh they don't know what happens in club land. They don't you know, so and these people are making decisions that flow right through to, you know, little Johnny who's who's who's playing cricket um, you know, on a Saturday. So is there a better way to do that? I think there probably is. Uh can you unwire something that's been so heavily wired for so long? Hard, but you'd like to think that um, you know, things can grow and change as the needs grow and change, and the and the needs of cricket in Australia are significantly different to what they were 20 years ago. Twenty years ago, T20 cricket didn't really exist. There was no external market for players. The competition for players was AFL and NRL. It's now the Indian Premier League. You know, that that takes a totally different mentality of how you're going to pay the players, how you're going to encourage the players to play cricket. So to encourage them to play cricket in Australia and not overseas. So it's kind of like a we're at a a crucible moment for for cricket. And I think we're we're still applying old methods to to a new world. And so hopefully that can change.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:13

It's interesting the globalization of cricket. Uh you can see even in from a sports perspective, how countries are moving towards their nearest competitive advantage, like it might for a different type of product that all of a sudden has to compete with an international labor market to hire certain talent for sure. Brings down the average salary of certain employees, super explodes the average salary of other employees. Yeah. And then all the um mixed incentives that come in managing that. That is that hundred that is exactly what Craig is going through.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:45

Yeah, yeah. And the problem being you know, it's it's basically a unionized workforce. Right. Uh that's the solution. Well, no, no, no, that that is the case. That's the problem. That is well, it's not the problem because it is done. I don't want to I'm a life member of the ACA. Passionate about what they have done for the game. They have dragged uh everything that players now um enjoy is because of them. So a deep amount of gratitude for that. But I do think our best players probably don't get paid enough, and our worst players get paid too much. And so the the you know the the spread is is too tight um in in our global market for sure. So what would be some solutions you'd like to suggest? Uh wow. Um, you know, if you listen to the ABC podcast, you'd hear me wax lyrical about this uh on a on a weekly basis. But I think there are ways to incentivize the best players to grow the value of the game. And historically that's been through external marketing contracts, etc. etc. But it they're a world where you can tie, you know, almost like a Aesop or you know, something of the like that they have some ownership of the game or the next meteorite cycle. You know, so the investment they make now, the value of cricket um is essentially determined by meteorites, except players playing now and the media rights are in five years, they don't get to benefit from that. So how can you encourage them to grow the game so that the game is in a better place from a meteorites point of view? And that your best players should be encouraged to do that. So that would be an argument to keep the best talent in the BBL, for instance. For sure. Yeah. And and find ways to incentivize them to do that. And, you know, what's the what's the trade-off for more money for your worst domestic player is flexibility. And so, you know, maybe shorter contracts, allowing them more freedom to play in other leagues, maybe the opportunity to work and we kind of go back to the future a little bit. Uh and so we need a bit more of a barbell approach. Uh and that might not be possible. This is just this is me with a blank piece of paper. This isn't me saying this is what we've got and let's blow it all up. Um, not knowing that there are intricacies between them.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:08

Surely there's room to look to how other global sporting leagues have been able to handle that type of explosive growth. Yeah, for sure. So if you think about how uh nascent the professionalization of cricket is and what the percentage of earnings the players make compared to the overall income of the league, even the IPL where players are making tens, twenty millions of dollars, is significantly less as a percentage measure than it might be for the EPL or it might be for the NFL. Not even in the the ballpark. It's single uh which is another single for how signal rather for how nascent it is and how there is room for all of this disruption that will inevitably come. The question is who's going to do it? Yeah, and that's one way to look at it.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:48

Or the other way to look at it is it's the greatest business if you're an IPL owner, it's the greatest business model that uh you know not bad. A capped uh cost base uh with no no market forces to uh improve it um as opposed to to other leagues around the world. So that's a that's a separate conversation for sure. Uh but what I do know is that you know player payment pressure in Australia is is real, um, and and we've got to find ways to to make sure our best players are earning enough money in Australia to to want to play here consistently. And so if you if you start actually reimagining what the world looks like, why is Lionel Messi playing for Miami, whatever they're called? I don't even know. Because he owns half the club, or whatever he knows whatever that it's it's not, but it he he has done a very lucrative deal uh you know to to grow the game in the US and it's and it's worked to a to an extent and it's been good for the player, it's been good for the league. Um why is David Beckham involved? You know, like these are world world-class sports people, you know, and big global brands in and of themselves, and there they are in in America in a in a challenger league. Um so you know, there there are unique ways to which we could think about it. Does the privatization of the BBL allow for more of this type of innovation? Uh it depends. I I think if there are Indian Premier League owners, probably not. Their incentive is not to grow the Big Bash, their incentive is to pillage the Big Bash so that the IPL gets stronger, full stop. Um Are there a world where you could have, you know, for lack of a better word, benevolent funders of Big Bash teams that are local that care deeply about grassroots cricket that can provide a means. Your name, not mine. Um but you can there are people in Australia who care passionately about sport that don't need the money. They don't care if they make a couple hundred million bucks out of the the Sydney Sixers. They care that kids are playing sport and they want to support that. And you can come to an arrangement that, you know, the ecosystem is is going to thrive. I think there's a world where that exists, but that's not what is being looked at at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:13

TDM uh manage three billion dollars in assets under management. Uh it's totally away from your core business model. But is there some nifty maneuvering where you could adopt a team?

SPEAKER_02 1:11:23

I mean, that's I uh I mean directly highly conflicted. So I would but you know, TDM that so a partner like TDM, uh, you know, that would be interesting, you know, where you know there's an evergreen pool of capital, you know, the time horizon match, sport, you know, the value of of sports asset, you know, they don't they don't um you know, the they compound slowly in the background. And so, you know, it lends itself to a family office or an evergreen pool of capital or a high net worth or whatever that is, that is a far more attractive source of capital for sport full stop, let alone Craig and the Big Bash, than uh, you know, a strategic IPL owner or a P a straight PE owner who has a five-year fun life and wants to leverage your asset and flick it after five years. So there are not not every dollar is the same when it comes to investing. Uh I don't think sport has has realized that yet.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:30

You've been completely transparent with whether you do have ambitions or not for Cricket Australia. But something I have thought about for a while, I think, whether it was when I was listening to the ABC podcast over the summer of cricket, or even whether it was before when I was listening to Scaling Up. Like he here in Ed Cowan, you have a person who uh has gone through the entire system of cricket, and someone deeply passionate about investing in funds management, and also running a podcast, commentating on the nature and state of the game. I can't help but uh but um but accuse you of wanting to run cricket Australia or have a very strong influence over Cricket Australia to actually implement some of these things, and it's kind of like the long career arc. Cricket player, professional money manager into CA.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:22

Yeah, uh as I said, it's something that I'm passionate about. I I think the the the second comment there was important. I'm passionate about influencing the game because I feel uniquely placed to do so. So what form that takes, I actually don't know. I'm incredibly happy with the form it takes right now, but I also know these podcasts are timeless and you you never know what happens in the future. And so uh I mean you're right. I I do want to influence the game.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:50

Uh that's why I I give you know time at the moment to to doing what I'm doing. Final question, Ed. Something I like to ask every guest if possible. It's simply what is the role of serendipity has played in your life? Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:02

Uh a reminder that I was an opening batsman. And so I would say more than most of your guests, uh that would that would play such a great role. And there's a great book on luck um that Ed Smith wrote, who was also an opening batsman that's that's worth reading. Is he alive? He is, yeah, yeah. He he's um the total sidebar, but you know, r has written for the Times and great books. And so he he Captain Kent, he actually inspired my diary. He wrote a diary while he was playing for Kent. Great human, and he's now the uh chair or whatever exact title is beyond me of the MCC um and and Lords. Uh so from a cricket point of view, endless. The the the fine line between uh okay, I'll I'll give you an example rather than talk in generalities. My test hundred, uh my test hundred, so having not scored a hundred in seven test matches my game, my my job is up for grabs. I glove one down the leg side that is caught by the keeper that is called a no-ball. So if you know how two two more centimeters of Mornay Morkel's size 14 boot behind the line, I'm out for 48. No one remembers Ed Cow and Test Centuri, uh-uh, put a line through that one. So, you know, that that's but there are other moments of you know uh um uh you know fine lines on debut, uh got given out caught behind when I I didn't hit it. You know, 68 MCG, you get 100 on test debut, that's a different, you know, that's a different storyline altogether. So that every single moment of every single game is a moment of serendipity when you're you know you're talking to an opening batsman. But there are other things in my life, so you know I think it's easy to gravitate to to that as a as a theme. I walked into the change rooms at the SCG one day for a charity or it wasn't a charity game, it was a a day to, you know, it was just a a player appearance for me on the anniversary of Victor Trumper's death. There standing in the room is Gideon Haig, who you've already mentioned. Never met him, read all these books, had a vision that he was like a seven-year-old man. Turns out that he's just, you know, a unicorn and he was 30, you know, 32 or however you all it was at at the time. And we strike up an amazing friendship and he encourages me to write. So all these things, be it my diary or the articles you refer to, I you know, I'd always enjoyed writing. But without that moment of walking in to meet him, and he's now a a a great friend, I wouldn't have done any writing. And maybe if I didn't write, maybe I wouldn't podcast. And he enc I think he encouraged my voice. He he was always like, You've got really interesting things to say. You should say them, you know, or why aren't you saying them? And you know, that's how I ended up on the ABC. So there are moments that and I could pick 50 of these, you know, we'd need a whole whole other podcast. But to give you a sense, you know, I think some people say, Oh, you know, like, of course it plays a role. I can point to certain, you know, clear moments in time almost uh that have that have been fork in the roads for me that have had huge impacts.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:24

For which you have zero control over. And then even in the world of TDD TDM, you know, how many of these uh investment outcomes that you make are actually down to your own thesis. Oh my goodness. So there there is a there is a separate podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:39

But uh one thing I do know about luck, and uh, you know, this an old adage my dad used to drill. You know, the harder you work, the luckier you get. And so luck can come and find you in in many moments, the glove down the leg side, the but it's what you do with that luck. You know, when when the dice roll your way, you need to be prepared uh and ready to to to take that. It would have been, you know, even the Gideon example. You know, that's a that's a moment of chance, but it then takes the work to to bring that to fruition to you look back and say, Oh, that was a lucky moment. Well, yeah, it was. But it's up to each individual to make that lucky moment count. Lovely Ed. Thanks so much, mate. Loved it. Thanks.